Pieter-Jelle de Boer wrote (February 24, 1998):

Herreweghe's NEW B-minor Mass has just been released. His "old" version (hardly ten years!) is a little modest, in a way, but has great moments and overall great depth in the performance. Countertenor Charles Brett wasn't a hit. The (Virgin) recording is a little muffled, not so bright. The new HM is very bright, very spatial. Sometimes, the soloist (all of them of a superb level, except...) are placed very (too) close to the microphone, so using headphones gives a slight problem. Herreweghe's new approach is more expressive, more outgoing than his first; especially the second part (everything after the "Missa") is very well-balanced, with an astonishingly slow but superb Agnus Dei with Andreas Scholl, and a majestic, rich-sounding Dona nobis Pacem.

But...

Why have Hanno Müller-Brachmann sing the "Quoniam..."? He also sings in the Mozart Requiem, but falls much better into place there. His voice is so un-baroque, especially compared to the others. Why not let Peter Kooy sing all bass solo parts? A better Bach bass is hardly thinkable. For me, this is totally incomprehensible and the only miss of the recording.

On the whole: Except for the above, I'd prefer this new recording to the previous. It's amazing how Herreweghe always knows how to touch my Bach string so well. And believe me, my Bach string is not easy to get to. Don't know Koopman's, don't know Rifkin's. Who needs them? I'm happy with Herreweghe!

Sorry, getting a bit carried away here... I think I'll drop the word Herreweghe for some time now!

Anybody else already heard this recording?

Karl K. Otsuki wrote (July 9, 1998):

Thanks to those who kindly replied to my mail.

George, you are correct. German Latin is Latin but has German characteristics in pronounciation. For example, "Qui" is pronounced as "Qvi", and "excelsis" is pronounced as "ekstselsis"... and so on. G is always pronounced hard way.. like "regina" -> "reghina". German Latin has rhythmic and percussive quality.

Andrew, yes, Oregon Bach Festival is held every summer at Eugene. Mr. Rilling is the artistic director, so yes, he does come here every year. He conducts wonderful festival choir & orchestra, teaches conducting masterclass, and gives lectures. I'm one of non-conducting masterclass participants (auditor), and having exciting days here. I've been observing Mr. Rilling's rehearsals, attending conducting seminars, and
meeting great people...

Here is Oregon Bach Festival website: http://bachfest.uoregon.edu. Hope this helps.

Benjamin Mullins wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, isn't the Mass comprised mainly of parodied cantata movements anyway? I think it would be interesting if those more familiar with the cantatas than myself could make a list of all the exact (or probable) sources of the movements. I know the "Agnus Dei" is from the Ascension Oratorio (BWV 11) and the "Crucifixus" is from Cantata BWV 12 ("Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen"), but that's about it.

Alan Pueppij wrote (January 20, 1999):

(To Benjamin Mullins) Well, I don't know all the music by Bach, but here is the information I have:

1. Kyrie
2. Christe
3. Kyrie
4. Gloria - cantata BWV 191 "Gloria in excelsis Deo", opening chorus
5. Laudamus te
6. Gratias - cantata BWV 29 "Wir danken dir, Gott", chorus
7. Domine Deus - cantata BWV 191, duet
8. Qui tollis - cantata BWV 46 "Schauet doch und sehet, ob irgendein Schmerz sei", first part of the opening chorus
9. Qui sedes
10. Quoniam
11. Cum Sancto Spiritu - cantata BWV 191, final chorus
12. Credo - I don't think this number could be found in any other work
13. Patrem omnipotentem - cantata BWV 171 "Gott, wie dein Name so ist auch dein Ruhm", opening chorus
14. Et in unum Dominum
15. Et incarnatus est
16. Crucifixus - cantata BWV 12 "Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen", first part of the chorus
17. Et resurrexit
18. Et in Spiritum
19. Confiteor - I don't think this number could be found in any other work
20. Et expecto - cantata BWV 120 "Gott, man lobet dich in der Stille", first part of the chorus
21. Sanctus
22. Osanna
23. Benedictus + Osanna
24. Agnus Dei - cantata BWV 11 "Lobet Gott in seinen Reichen", aria for alto
25. Dona nobis pacem - cantata BWV 29, chorus (see above, No. 6)

Donald Scarinci wrote (September 10, 1999):

I have Bach's Mass in B Minor by Robert Shaw and the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and Chamber Chorus on the Telarc label. Any thoughts on this piece?

Wes Crone wrote (September 10, 1999):

[To Donald Scarinci] Well, I must say that you've really opened a can of worms here bud. I LOVE the B minor mass. LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT! For that fellow list member who is agianst using the word love to describe one's feelings for a piece of music I will say it again......I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is quite possibly the greatest piece of music ever written by anyone EVER! I have no reservations saying this. The only hesitation I get is wondering about some other Bach masterpieces. The Art of Fugue is tough to beat. I think I will match them up by saying that the Art of Fugue is Bach's best instrumental piece and the B minor mass is his greatest piece with voice/choir. Darn...that means I have to leave off the motets. Hmph! Anyway, the Kyrie is the greatest single movement of a choral work by anyone. please remember this is just my opinion. I don;t want to be crucified by another list member down the road and then have to explain myself. OK, having said that, let me continue. Yes, the Kyrie is so incredibly profound. It moves me in ways nothing else really can. I love the solemn theme for the fugue and the grand opening chords. I never tire of the Kyrie. The Christe is also a beautiful piece. I love the wonderful opening with strings and the vocal writing is incredibly beautiful. I just love that duet. Ohh how I hate to skip some parts but I could NEVER fit all I WANT to say in this single posting. I will leave other parts for other list members (Hope you're listening Don, Mimi). Before I do that, though, I want to comment on a few more if I may. A personal favorite of mine is the Laudamus Te. I really love that melody. It is a favorite of my sister's too. We always get a nice smile on our faces when this movement begins. I would like to comment on the Crucifixus. This pieces is a ground on a bass essentially very similar to the ground used by Purcell in Dido's Lament from Dido and Aeneas. I think Bach does a superb job with the ground. Truthfully, I don;t think there was ever a composer as good with working on a ground as Purcell (he is my #2 composer), not even Bach himself. Whew!!!! "The mass in B minor, the greatest piece of music ever written." I feel totally comfortable saying that, but then, Bach is my favorite composer so go figure. Take it away Don, I need to go crank up the Mass!

Kevin Sutton wrote (September 11, 1999):

[To Donald Scarinci] The piece, IMHO is the greatest expression of human reverence for the Almighty ever penned. It is *the* sublime work of art for all mankind. As for the Shaw recording, it is typical of his insistance on rhythmic perfection at all costs and I find it somewhat sterile. The Gardiner recording and the Christophers recording are far superior as far as I am concerned.

Steven Schwartz wrote (September 11, 1999):

Yeah. It's great. Shaw's happens to be one of my favorite recordings - though not as favorite as the one he did way back when for RCA with the Robert Shaw Chorale. I especially like the way he uses, in effect, three vocal ensembles: the soloists, the massed group, and the "concertato" choir. This gets a gorgeous variety of choral sound and it sets off structure besides.

There are those who prefer a more "monumental" b-minor, but not me. Those recordings tend to remind me of elephants trying to make it through bogs. To me, Bach dances, even here.

Shakin' awesome goo.

Donald Satz wrote (September 10, 1999):

Wes wrote of those sections of the Mass he most liked. I'll just bring up one particular recording - Gardiner's on Archiv.

I think of Gardiner as highly theatrical, energetic, and exuberant in much Baroque choral music. Although he does not slight the reverent and severe aspects of the Bach Mass, he brings theatre to the work as well. I appreciate this very much; it's a conception that perfectly satisfies my preferences. So, I obviously favor Gardiner over all other period instrument recordings. I feel the same way concerning Gardiner's Christmas Oratorio and the Magnificat. With the cantatas, however, I think that Gardiner restrains himself too much. Oh well, you can't get everything from one person. If you're undecided about delving into Gardiner's Bach, just check out the opening to the Christmas Oratorio. If that doesn't make you feel like marching around the room, go for a different conductor.

Walter Meyer wrote (September 11, 1999):

For a totally untrained listener to music like me, who might otherwise have trouble recognizing a modulation from, I recommend the conclusion of the Crucifixus from the Credo (which was one of our assigned listenings in my freshman music 101 course in college). Hear that modulation to major and you'll never again wonder what a modulation is.

Walter Meyer, who shares Wes' and others' admiration for J.S. Bach but refuses, by singling out a "best", to enter into a monogamous marriage with any composer, whether Bach, Beethoven, Schubert, Mozart, Purcell, or some other titan I have omitted.

Donald Satz wrote (September 11, 1999):

I well understand the refusal or reluctance to get into a ranking mode, but I have no problem doing it. I have to make choices among alternatives every day, and I'm usually primed to do just that. Bach is my favorite composer and the others, in order are as follows:

1. Bach
2. Mozart
3. Beethoven
4. Händel
5. Schubert
6. Mahler
7. Shostakovich
8. Schumann
9. Brahms
10. Wagner
11. Zemlinsky
12. Debussy
13. Haydn
14. Ravel
15. Telemann
16. Vainberg
17. Scelsi
18. Spohr
19. Hummel
20. Weber

Wait a week and the list could change a little. About five years ago, Mozart was on top, and Mahler/Wagner/Vainberg were not in the picture at all. I look forward to seeing where my tastes will head in the next few years.

Walter Meyer wrote (September 11, 1999):

Hmmm. No Prokoffiev, Bartok, Chopin, Tchaikowsky, Britten, Purcell...?

Maybe I wouldn't claim any of those or other omitted giants as a favorite, but their exclusion from any short list would disturb me.

Joseph Sowa wrote (September 11, 1999):

We're doing lists? Those are always a lot of fun. Here's my countdown.

1. Bach
2. Beethoven
3. Haydn
4. Dvorak
5. Borodin
6. Vaughan Williams
7. Berwald
8. Prokofiev
9. Bruckner
10. John Williams

You'll notice Mozart isn't here. He's somewhere in the teens. Like Don's mine is a very dynamic list.

Deryk Barker wrote (September 11, 1999):

As Roger Fry said, "Bach almost persuades me to be a Christian".

< As for the Shaw recording, it is typical of his insistance on rhythmic perfection at all costs and I find it somewhat sterile. The Gardiner >recording and the Christophers recording are far superior as far as I am concerned. >

Oh yuck! Sorry, but I really can't stand the Gardiner, it's as profound as his Missa Solemnis (i.e., for me, not at all).

Richter still holds sway for me, although Marriner is not at all bad (and has Janet Baker). I'm still waiting for the HIP B minor which really grabs me by the throat.

Mimi Erust wrote (September 12, 1999):

I HOPE we are not doing more lists! Or if we do lists, I hope there will be some good explanation for each of the choices. That's the only kind of list that makes any sense to me.

I know it's fun to name your fave composer, conductor, what-have-you, but it's such a waste of time just to read names over and over. You can get names from any catalog.

Donald Satz wrote (September 12, 1999):

Mimi has a good point, so I'll provide my reasons:

1. Bach - Master of counterpoint, subtlety, and effectively conveying the most diverse set of emotions in the most compact manner. No "overblown" posturing from this man.

2. Mozart - My idea of the "Melody Man" - great ones just keep coming and they're connected so well.

3. Beethoven - Usually rough but always ready. His musical (not form) innovations, his wealth of emotions conveyed, his anger, his vision, and an ample supply of beautiful melodies place him very high in my musical world.

4. Händel - The king of the aria.

5. Schubert - similar to my description of Beethoven, but with more poetry and less overt aggression.

6. Mahler - Mahler keeps rising in my estimation, as I understand him better. There are a few other composers I didn't rate as well that I generally would rather hear, but I know they don't have as much to say. Mahler's not easy for me, but the dividends are plentiful.

7. Shostakovich - I can't deny that the events surrounding the times he lived in have much to do with my view of Shostakovich's music. He's a childhood friend, and that adds to it. I love the bleakness and sarcasm of his music.

8. Schumann - The man of poetry. I also think of him as a Chopin more attuned to my preferences.

9. Brahms - I love his solo piano works and his chamber music - a great combination of power, poetry, elegance, and delicacy.

10. Wagner - The "macho" man of classical music.

11. Zemlinsky - I think of him as the perfect example of late romantic music, and I am very fond of that time period.

12. Debussy - A master of confusion, doubt, and multiple shadings. I find him very engrossing, although not easy to figure out.

13. Haydn - Great solo piano music and string quartets. His late piano sonatas I find not of classical era dimensions, but of early romantic.

14. Ravel - More "sharp" than Debussy and more varied.

15. Telemann - A natural composer who wrote some outstanding vocal works. Would be higher, but there isn't much depth involved.

16. Vainberg - To some degree, a Shostakovich "clone", and that's not shabby.

17. Scelsi - Great for taking an intergalactic ride to who knows where.

18. Spohr - I love the music of this time period, and Spohr provides some superb melodies in varied settings. I never tire of listening to his music.

19. Hummel - Some of the same coments on Spohr apply here. It's Hummel's piano concertos which I favor the most.

20. Weber - Again, that favored time period. With Weber, it's the clarinet chamber and vocal works that do it for me.

David Stewart wrote (September 13, 1999):

I have his Christmas Oratorio and found it really clinical and dry sounding. There was no warmth at all.

< Richter still holds sway for me, although Marriner is not at all bad (and has Janet Baker). I'm still waiting for the HIP B minor which really grabs me by the throat. >

Wait no longer. Robert King and the King's Consort on Hyperion. CDA67201/2. All male singers. They hit the notes though, despite a VERY fast Laudamus.

Patrik Enander wrote (September 13, 1999):

Your comment made me smile: Two nights ago I listened to Gardiner's version for the fist time. After I while I all of sudden asked myself: .... but isn't this rather shallow? One piece, I can't remeber which, made me think about a sewing machine, perfect rythm but dead.

I don't remeber if it was on this list or the bach-list I was member of a year ago, that there were a fair amount of Gardiner-bashing. He is anyway a long way from my favourite Herreweghe. I have unfortunately nit he his "Mass". His new ome on Harmonia Mundi got fairly bad press. Has anyome heard it?

Donald Satz wrote (September 13, 1999):

I've already stated my opinion that Gardiner's is the best Bach Mass on record. What Deryk wrote did get me to thinking of the degree of difference in opinions of performances of sacred choral works based on the degree of religious feeling of the listener.

I am a thoroughly non-religious person. I can't possibly identify with or feel the religious themes of sacred works, although I am well aware that these themes are prevalent in the music. What I seem to naturally do is convert the religious themes into alternative themes. Can I be as impacted by the music as the religious listener? I think so. Is it reasonable that the performances I like most might be different from those liked most by the religious listener? Again, I I think so. So, perhaps, Deryk's preferences and mine are impacted in part by our religious views. If Deryk shares my views, forget the whole thing.

John Smyth wrote (September 13, 1999):

How is Franz Brüggen's performance of the B minor on Phillips? I am a fan of Brüggen's Haydn and I could not find a review in the Gramophone archives.

Donald Scarinci (September 14, 1999):

I am drawn in by Wes' enthusiasm for The Mass and the Art of Fugue. I just ordered the Gardiner Mass. Which Art of Fugue do I get? (Remember, I'm the one who thinks recording quality is very important. If there is a Fugue in 20 or 24 bit surround sound, I have to believe that is close to heaven when played back on a good surround system)

Donald Satz wrote (September 13, 1999):

Gardiner is taking it on the chin lately:

< David Stewart wrote: I have his Christmas Oratorio and found it really clinical and dry sounding. There was no warmth at all. >

What was your answer? (just being a wiseguy).

Clinical, dry, no warmth, and shallow; traits that I don't find in Gardiner's Bach Mass or Christmas Oratorio. The traits that do currently stick out in my mind are: theatrical, exciting, propulsive, and incisive.

I do have a question for Patrik and David. Do you find Gardiner's performances of the Bach cantatas an improvement over the Mass and Christmas Oratorio.

D. Stephen Heersink (September 14, 1999):

Ironically, the B-minor Mass is my favourite composition, while Gardiner's performance of it leaves me lifeless. I don't know if its the size of the players, the recording environment, or the style Gardiner elicits, but the orchestra sounds puny to the soloists and chorus. At key points, there is a lack of the "dramatic," such as when the Credo's "et incarnatus est" is so matter of fact, rather than hushed, but strong-throatedly asserted. Similar problems occur with the passion and resurrection phrases. It sounds like someone doesn't understand the liturgical significance of the words their singing or the notes they're playing. A really good performance (e.g., Karajan, Jochum) seems to sense the drama better, imbuing the words with musical significance that Bach clearly understood and intended.

Johan van Veen wrote (September 14, 1999):

< Donald Satz wrote: Deryk's preferences and mine are impacted in part by our religious views. If Deryk shares my views, forget the whole thing. >

Although I very much believe that the listener's religious views have something to do with the understanding of Bach's music, I wonder whether in this case it makes a difference. I haven't heard Gardiner's recording of the b minor Mass, but I know some of his other Bach recordings, and they are totally unsatisfying for me. I have almost always problems with British performances of German baroque music. Even if the British understand the German language, very few can speak it fluently and very few seem to truely understand the differentiations of the language. I very much believe that the way the native language is spoken influences the way of composing, not only of vocal but also of instrumental works. Therefore English orchestras (like The English Concert) are often wrong in things like phrasing, articulation, accents etc. That is a general problem, but tells more in German music. They seem not to understand that German is basically a non-legato language, characterised by sharp sounds and a very sharp articulation. That should influence the interpretation of German baroque music. (We shouldn't forget that baroque music has a very strong rhetorical character, and is based on speaking.) Furthermore, I think that the quality of the Monteverdi Choir is highly exaggerated. I believe that there are far better choirs, especially for Bach.

Johan van Veen wrote (September 14, 1999):

I have heard this recording. I haven't read all the reviews, but I myself have written one for a German magazine, and I was quite negative as well. This new recording has a lack of passion and a lack of contrast. The legato-approach smooths everything out and takes the edge off the piece. Furthermore some of the soloists out of place, in particular the soprano Johannette Zomer (she doesn't match with the other soloists) and the bass Hanno Muller-Brachmann (whom I admired very much in Telemann's opera Orpheus). Even the famous tenor Christoph Pregardien sounds uninspired. The second soprano Veronique Gens is allright, without being outstanding. The alto Andreas Scholl sounds fine, but is a little superficial, in my view. Only Peter Kooy is relyable and convincing as ever. The whole recording is rather flat and dull, as if no one really believes that the recording is worth making. I can't recommend it to anybody. Unfortunately I haven't found a wholly satisfying recording so far.

David Stewart wrote (September 15, 1999):

I wish I could tell you. I only have 310 CD’s so far. No Bach cantatas whatsoever.

Donald Satz wrote (Sepember 14, 1999):

All I remember of the reviews was that the performance was considered to give priority to the orchestra at the expense of the vocalists. Personally, I didn't have a problem with this feature. I was bothered by the rather whimsical/light approach Brüggen uses.

Alberto Larzabal wrote (September 15, 1999):

I almost always LOVE the Monteverdi Choir. Their sound is fresh, direct, rich... Sometimes the soprani are a bit "flat" (I can admit it), but...? Which are those fantastic "Bachian" choirs? I'm really interested...

Walter Meyer wrote (September 14, 1999):

But the text of the b minor mass is in Greek (the Kyrie) and Latin!

Tedd A. Jander wrote (September 15, 1999):

I read an article in the Summer 1999 issue of Early Music America, about a version of Bach's Mass in B by Joshua Rifkin from 1982 that had one person per part. No information was given about a record label, price, etc. of the recording or if the recording is available. The main point of the article was whether or not Rifkin's approach is correct as far as some Bach scholars are concerned. Anyway, my main question is this, has anyone heard this recording or heard of this approach to Bach's Mass? I'd be curious to hear this version.

P.S. The Early Music America webpage can be found at: http://www.cwru.edu/affil/ema/

Donald Satz wrote (September 15, 1999):

Since I have never delved into litugical matters and intend to keep it that way, Gardiner and I must be a good match.

For all those list members who have spoken of Gardiner's music in a depreciating manner, be assured that the "day of retribution" will be upon you - 8 straight hours of Gardiner/Bach in a soundproof and locked booth. I'll be situated outside the booth providing you with increasing doses of electric current whenever a favorite musical passage is played.

Continue to Part 2

Mass in B minor BWV 232: Details
Complete Recordings: 1900-1949 | 1950-1959 | 1960-1969 | 1970-1979 | 1980-1989 | 1990-1999 | 2000-2009 | 2010-2019 | 2020-2029
Recordings of Individual Movements: 1900-1949 | 1950-1959 | 1960-1969 | 1970-1979 | 1980-1989 | 1990-1999 | 2000-2009 | 2010-2019 | 2020-2029
General Discussions: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6 | Part 7 | Part 8 | Part 9 | Part 10 | Part 11 | Part 12 | Part 13 | Part 14 | Part 15 | Part 16 | Part 17 | Part 18 | Part 19
Systematic Discussions: Part 1: Kyrie | Part 2: Gloria | Part 3: Credo | Part 4: Sanctus | Part 5: Agnus Dei | Part 6: Early Recordings | Part 7: Summary
Individual Recordings: BWV 232 - C. Abbado | BWV 232 - Anonymous | BWV 232 - G.C. Biller | BWV 232 - F. Brüggen | BWV 232 - J. Butt | BWV 232 - S. Celibidache | BWV 232 - M. Corboz | BWV 232 - A. Eby | BWV 232 - G. Enescu | BWV 232 - E. Ericson | BWV 232 - D. Fasolis | BWV 232 - J.E. Gardiner | BWV 232 - C.M. Giulini | BWV 232 - N. Harnoncourt | BWV 232 - T. Hengelbrock | BWV 232 - P. Herreweghe | BWV 232 - R. Hickox | BWV 232 - R. Jacobs | BWV 232 - E. Jochum | BWV 232 - Ifor Jones | BWV 232 - K. Junghänel & Cantus Cölln | BWV 232 - H.v. Karajan | BWV 232 - R. King | BWV 232 - O. Klemperer | BWV 232 - S. Kuijken | BWV 232 - G. Leonhardt | BWV 232 - P. McCreesh | BWV 232 - M. Minkowski | BWV 232 - H. Müller-Bruhl | BWV 232 - S. Ozawa | BWV 232 - M. Pearlman | BWV 232 - K. Richter | BWV 232 - J. Rifkin | BWV 232 - H. Rilling | BWV 232 - H. Scherchen | BWV 232 - P. Schreier | BWV 232 - R. Shaw | BWV 232 - G. Solti | BWV 232 - M. Suzuki | BWV 232 - J. Thomas & ABS | BWV 232 - K. Thomas | BWV 232 - J.v. Veldhoven
Articles: Mass in B Minor, BWV 232 [T. Noel Towe] | Bach’s B minor Mass on Period Instruments [D. Satz] | Like Father, Like Son [B. Pehrson]