Chorales in Bach's Vocal Works
Discussions - Part 5

Continue from Part 4

CM & CT 'O großer Gott von Macht'

Aryeh Oron wrote (September 3, 2005):
Two additions to the database of Chorale Melodies (CM) & Chorale Texts (CT).

CM 'O großer Gott von Macht'
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/O-Grosser-Gott.htm
Contributed by Thomas Braatz.

CT 'O großer Gott von Macht'
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale024-Eng3.htm
Contributed by Francis Browne.

Both the CM & CT are used in Mvt. 6 of of BWV 46, the cantata discussed this week.

You are invited to send corrections/additions/suggestions for improvements.

Chorale (Mvt. 6) from Cantata BWV 179

Aryeh Oron wrote (September 5, 2005):
The concluding Chorale (Mvt. 6) from BWV 179, the cantata for discussion this week, uses the 1^st verse of the CT (hymn) "Ich armer Mensch, ich armer Sünder" by Christoph Tietze (1663) set to the CM 'Wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten' by Georg Neumark (1641).

Francis Browne translated the complete CT into English:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale025-Eng3.htm

Thomas Braatz contributed a page dedicated to this CM, which was used by J.S. Bach in his vocal works with 3 different CT:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Wer-nur-den-lieben-Gott.htm
The page includes, among other things, scores and music example (midi and ram formats).

Francis Browne contributed also his English translation of BWV 179 text:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/BWV179-Eng3.htm

Latest additions of CM & CT pages

Aryeh Oron wrote (September 13, 2005):
Latest additions to the database of Chorale Melodies (CM) & Chorale Texts (CT).

CM 'Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan': http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Was-Gott-tut.htm
This CM is used by Bach in the concluding chorale (Mvt. 6) of Cantata BWV 69a, discussed this week.

CM 'Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein': http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Ach-Gott-vom-Himmel.htm
This CM is used by Bach in the concluding chorale (Mvt. 6) of Cantata BWV 77, planned for discussion next week (September 18, 2005).

CM 'Freu dich sehr, o meine Seele': http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Freu-dich-sehr.htm
This CM is used by Bach in the concluding chorale (Mvt. 6) of Cantata BWV 25, planned for discussion in the week of September 25, 2005.

All CM pages were contributed by Thomas Braatz.

CT 'Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein' http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale026-Eng3.htm
Contributed by Francis Browne.

You are invited to send corrections/additions/suggestions for improvements.

Douglas Cowling wrote (September 13, 2005):
Bravo Thomas!

Aryeh Oron wrote:
< Latest additions to the database of Chorale Melodies (CM) & Chorale Texts (CT).
All CM pages were contributed by Thomas Braatz. >
Wonderful work Thomas! These pages are full of fascinating material. I am particularly happy to see the lists of works by other composers: they remind us of the musical environment in which Bach worked. Yes, he was a unique genius, but he probably saw himself as just one among many in a rich tradition.

Thanks for this resource!

Recent additions to the Chorale section of the BCW

Aryeh Oron wrote (September 25, 2005):
Articles:

When we informed the BCML of out plan to build a database of CM's & CT's, about 6 weeks ago, some members asked for background material about this topic.

Now some background is available for you. I have added 4 articles to the BCW, apparently old but definitely not outdated.

3 of them are taken from the famous book 'J.S. Bach' by Albert Schweitzer (1908), English translation by Ernest Newman (Breitkopf & Härtel, 1911).
'The Origin of the Texts of the Chorales':
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/CT-Schweitzer.htm
'The Origin of the Melodies of the Chorales':
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/CM-Schweitzer.htm
'The Chorale in the Church Service':
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/Chorale-Church-Schweitzer.htm

The 4^th is from the 1952 edition of Grove:
'Choral / Chorale', by Charles Stanford Terry:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/Chorale-OldGrove.htm


Chorale Melodies:

CM 'Herr Gott dich loben wir' [The German Te Deum]:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Das-Tedeum.htm
CM 'Warum betrübst du dich, mein Herz':
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Warum-betrubst.htm

All CM pages were contributed by Thomas Braatz.


Chorale Texts:

CT 'Treuer Gott, ich muß dir klagen':
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale032-Eng3.htm
CT 'Freu dich sehr, o meine Seele':
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale030-Eng3.htm
CT 'Kommt, laßt euch den Herren lehren'
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale031-Eng3.htm
CT 'Herr Gott, dich loben wir' [The German Te Deum]:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale036-Eng3.htm
[presented in Latin-German-English]

All CT pages were contributed by Francis Browne.

The new CM & CT pages are connected to cantatas planned for discussion in the forthcoming weeks.


Short Biographies:

New biographies of CT poets & CM composers have been added; others have been expanded. Among the new bios you can find:

Christoph Demantius, who wrote the CT 'Freu dich sehr, o meine Seele'
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Demantius-Christoph.htm

Nicetas of Remesiana, who wrote the original Latin text of Te Deum:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Nicetas.htm

Hans Sachs (yes, the one from Richard Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg), who for many years had been thought that he could have written both song and melody of 'Warum betrübst du dich, mein Herz':
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Sachs-Hans.htm


You are invited to send corrections/additions/suggestions for improvements.

Gott Heilger Geist chorale?

Juozas Rimas wrote (March 18, 2006):
A sample of a chorale "Gott Heilger Geist" may be listened to at: Amazon.com

I couldn't find such a chorale in the Bischof's cantata texts database. The text is intervowen into a movements of cantata BWV 126 and the music sounds quite different.

Also, in the samples page of the Koopman's CD, the chorale seems to go after the BWV 59 cantata, but this cantata already features a chorale, "Komm, Heiliger Geist", which is also different (although matching the second part (Du heilige Brunst) of the BWV 226 motet).

Is there a BWV number for the "Gott Heilger Geist" chorale? Is it a part of a cantata or just a separate chorale, perhaps an organ one?

How do all these bits - t"Gott Heilger Geist" chorale, BWV 59 chorale, BWV 126 and BWV 59 relate?

Thomas Braatz wrote (March 18, 2006):
Juozas Rimas wrote:
>>A sample of a chorale "Gott Heilger Geist" may be listened to at: Amazon.com <<
There is no separate chorale which Bach used that is called "Gott Heiliger Geist", at least there is no chorale text or melody listed under this name. What you seem to have here is the 3^rd verse of Martin Luther's "Erhalt uns, Herr, bei deinem Wort". Anyone can take a 4-pt setting such as that in BWV 6/6 and sing a different verse "Gott, Heiliger Geist" to the same music and setting, but this does not make this a chorale called "Gott, Heiliger Geist".

>>I couldn't find such a chorale in the Bischof's cantata texts database.<<
That's good.

>>The text is intervowen into a movements of cantata BWV 126 and the music sounds quite different.<<
This is the same melody "Erhalt uns, Herr, bei deinem Wort" that is used in the 1^st mvt. of BWV 126. Bach does variations here in BWV 126/3 with the simple melody as it receives a more florid, vocal treatment.

>>Also, in the samples page of the Koopman's CD, the chorale seems to go after the BWV 59 cantata, but this cantata already features a chorale, "Komm, Heiliger Geist", which is also different (although matching the second part (Du heilige Brunst) of the BWV 226 motet).<<
"Komm, Heiliger Geist" is a different chorale (text and melody).

>>Is there a BWV number for the "Gott Heilger Geist" chorale? Is it a part of a cantata or just a separate chorale, perhaps an organ one?<<
You will find it as BWV 1101, but otherwise only in BWV 126 and BWV 6/6 = Breitkopf # 72.

Chorale Melodies & Chorale Texts Project - Progress Report and Questions

Aryeh Oron wrote (May 2, 2006):
Thomas Braatz, Francis Browne and I are progressing with the huge project of building a database of all the CM's (Choral Melodies) and CT's (Chorale Texts) used in Bach's vocal works. So far we have about 70 CM pages and about 60 CT pages. See:
Chorale Melodies: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/index.htm
Chorale Texts: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/IndexTexts-Chorales-Title.htm

AFAIK, there is no similar project over the web, and even info about the CM's and the CT's in good books is not so easy to use. The inter-links between the pages of CM's, CT's, authors of the CT's, composers of the CM's, other composers who used the CM, vocal works, movements, etc. should help the navigation and the make the research easier. The splitting of the data between the CT and CM helps to find simple solutions for complicated cases, where Bach set the same CT to several CM's, and vice versa.

The new CM pages are presented in a new format, which makes, so we hope, for even easier use. Each score sample is presented directly under the text where it is mentioned rather than all of them together at the lower part of the page. See, for example:
Old format: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Christ-lag-in-Todesbanden.htm
New format: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Christ-Jordan.htm

A few questions:
a. Do you find the new format easier to use?
b. When you print a hard copy of a chorale score sample on your own printers, are the images fuzzy or clear and sharp? Is the text typed under the notes directly and easily readable on the screen or on a printed copy or could this be improved?

And, of course, any corrections/additions/suggestions for improvements are most welcome.

Thanks & Enjoy,

Santu de Silva wrote (May 3, 2006):
[To Aryeh Oron] Are you familiar with the old Barlow & Morgenstern indexes to music? They were a crude means of alphabetizing melodies by (1) writing them out in C major or A minor, and the (2) listing them in ordinary alphabetical order. It was a brilliant idea, and one which may or may not be adaptable to the present problem.

One difficulty I see is that the melodies are often present in variants. Still, if a melody isn't right where you're looking for it, it will probably be close by. (It is possible to also make a so-called 'permuted index', as they did for UNIX documentation, where every important phrase was rotated, to put each word in turn at the beginning of the string, and indexed. But with searching tools available in browsers, this isn't important.)

If you decide to follow-up on this, I volunteer to help, as it will be a large addition to the project.

Bradley Lehman wrote (May 4, 2006):
Santu de Silva qrote
< Are you familiar with the old Barlow & Morgenstern indexes to music? They were a crude means of alphabetizing melodies by (1) writing them out in C major or A minor, and the (2) listing them in ordinary alphabetical order. It was a brilliant idea, and one which may or may not be adaptable to the present problem. >
I remember that our junior high school library (!) had that book, and I looked up the theme of Beethoven's 7th symphony in it once.... A A A A A A A A A A B C C .... :)

Also, the hymnal "Harmonia Sacra" has a published index that does something similar with Do-Re-Mi etc. to look up any tune in that book. Quite useful.

DeWitt Wasson's huge and recent (1998) hymn index across many hymnals does similarly, with the Do-Re-Mi's: Scarecrow Press
A CD-ROM edition of that book exists, as well: Scarecrow Press

Eric Bergerud wrote (May 4, 2006):
[To Aryeh Oron] I printed out the new format of Christ-Jordan. Everything looks great: music and print aligned perfecto. I'm sure musical scholars will be burning candles or something like that in honor of the folks involved. That said, has everyone working on this project read Moby Dick? <G>

Breitkopf Collection of J.S. Bach's 4-Part Chorales

Aryeh Oron wrote (September 19, 2006):
The name of Breitkopf has become the main association with a collection of a large number of J.S. Bach’s 4-pt. chorales which are derived from Bach’s sacred vocal music (cantatas, Passions, oratorios, motets, etc.) and are presented in a reduced format (only two staves) to make them more easily playable on any keyboard instrument. In this type of reduction some important musical information contained in the original format (usually the final chorale of a cantata) is lost: independent instrumental parts, figured bass, articulation, dynamics, and, most importantly of all, the original chorale text. Thus it becomes apparent that the original purpose was not to preserve Bach’s composition of these wonderful chorales as is, but simply to use these reductions to demonstrate Bach’s supreme artistry in the harmonisation of a chorale. Indeed, this purpose became its raison d'ètre for more than a century after the first publication of this collection by Breitkopf in 1784-1787. It was not until about a century after Bach’s death that some musicians were beginning to realize that these often audacious harmonizations did not make much sense considered simply in isolation. In the 2^nd half of the 19^th century Ludwig Erk published these chorales with the assigned chorale texts, as far as those texts could be determined at that time.

Thomas Braatz contributed an article about the History of the Breitkopf Collection of J.S. Bach’s Four-Part Chorales.
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/Breitkopf-History.htm

As you can find in the article, there are different versions, hand-written copies and printings of the chorales that served as sources for the Breitkopf chorales. The most reliable system for referencing the Breitkopf numbers is to adopt the system of numbering used by the NBA. These numbers are also used by the 'Oxford Composer Companion - J.S. Bach' (1999). The titles of the chorales in the Breitkopf Collection might also be misleading: sometimes they represent the first verse of the Chorale Text (CT), sometimes they are the title of the Chorale Melody (CM), and in other cases neither of these. Furthermore, when the verse of the CT used in a Bach's vocal work is not the first, it usually has a different title (incipit).

To put everything in order, I have prepared a complete list of the 371 4-Part Chorales, using the NBA numbering. Whenever applicable, information, which also accounts for other earlier editions and manuscript copy collections, is also included.
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/IndexCM-Breitkopf.htm

All titles associated with the chorale are listed, using the following prefixes:
- B: The title in the Breitkopf list of 371 Four-Part Chorales.
- D: The title in the Dietel list (if different from B).
- R: The title in the Birnstiel collection (if different from B)
- O: The title in another source [mentioned in square brackets]
- M: The incipit of the mvt.

The chorales are arranged by Breitkopf number and include the following links:
- The relevant Mvt. page.
- The relevant CM page (empty entry means that the CM page has not yet been created).
- The relevant CT page (empty entry means that the CT page has not yet been created).

As we progress with the CM & CT project, empty entries would be filled.

A word of caution: the user of the list should be aware that this is definitely not a comprehensive list of chorales used in Bach's works. There are many instances of CM's in choruses, arias, recitatives and even chorales not listed in the Breitkopf collection. Furthermore, CM's can also be found in many of Bach's non-vocal works, especially the chorale preludes for organ. The CT associated with a Chorale in Breitkopf list might also appear in other places in Bach's vocal works, sometimes in a paraphrased form, with the Breitkopf-associated CM, or with another CM, or without CM at all. To find all the instances of a CM or a CT, simply take a look the relevant CM or CT page.

I hope you would find the article and the list useful.

As usual, suggestions for corrections, additions and/or improvement, would be most welcome.

Bradley Lehman wrote (September 19, 2006):
Aryeh Oron wrote:
< The name of Breitkopf has become the main association with a collection of a large number of J.S. Bach's 4-pt. chorales which are derived from Bach's sacred vocal music (cantatas, Passions, oratorios, motets, etc.) and are presented in a reduced format (only two staves) to make them more easily playable on any keyboard instrument. In this type of reduction some important musical information contained in the original format (usually the final chorale of a cantata) is lost: independent instrumental parts, figured bass, articulation, dynamics, and, most importantly of all, the original chorale text. >
Ummm....what does "lost" mean? I have the Albert Riemenschneider edition (1941, Schirmer) right here open on my desk, carried here from its home on the harpsichord. Its pages 113-162 "Notes on the 371 chorales" include all the sung texts and all the instrumentation. This section also tells which of the chorales come from now-lost other compositions: a tantalizing look into the body of lost cantatas! This terrific book is still readily available for under $12.00 USD. I'd call this one especially "indispensable" for anyone interested in Bach's
musical idiom....

I also have a 20th century "EDITION BREITKOPF" book "Johann Sebastian Bach, 371 Four-Part Chorales" as reprinted by Associated Music Publishers Inc, New York, claiming to be "sole authoritative American reprint of the original Breitkopf & Härtel edition". This book doesn't have the section of Riemenschneider's commentary, but otherwise it's the identical set of music to the above. A nice feature of this one is that the cross-references from one piece to another are tipped into the title on each piece, instead of elsewhere in the book's index.

Broader point: Riemenschneider's 1941 edition used the same printing as the "real" B&H, merely doing a cut-and-paste to cram more staves onto each page. Its special value is in all the commentary that comes with it.

And, of course, the NBA itself is also available, providing thorough detail about everything yet again. Baerenreiter offers its performance edition as one of their usual NBA offprints, blue cover #5237, for a reasonable price (28.50 EUR): http://tinyurl.com/fxdwr
Here's one place to get it, while I haven't yet myself: http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?cart=33676590056895458&item=5125327

< To put everything in order, I have prepared a complete list of the 371 4-Part Chorales, using the NBA numbering. Whenever applicable, information, which also accounts for other earlier editions and manuscript copy collections, is also included.
See: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/IndexCM-Breitkopf.htm >
Fine, and the cross-listing is useful, but: why go to the trouble of redoing something that already exists (and done very well indeed) both in print and on the web? For the latter I'm referring to the site by Margaret Greentree: http://www.jsbchorales.net/ where there are PDF scores moving the chorales back out to four-staff open score. That is even better playing exercise on keyboard than to read the two-staff Breitkopf version.

< As usual, suggestions for corrections, additions and/or improvement, would be most welcome. >
I'm just not convinced yet of any necessary value that has been added, above materials that are already readily available: the NBA, Riemenschneider, et al. (Only the internet convenience of being "free and worth every penny" as the saying goes?)

It's the same general argument I have against new translations, unless they're clearly adding new scholarly and peer-reviewed value to serious research of the topics. For example, most of the extant Bach documentation is covered very well among the three published collections: Bach-Dokumente (in German), The New Bach Reader (newer and in English), and Bach en son temps by Gilles Cantagrel (in French, 1997).

The latter, which is probably the least familiar to readers here:
Amazon.com
http://www.fnac.com/shelf/Article.asp?PRID=855891

Beyond these resources in these three languages I don't see the point in having new translations to the same languages, unless they're clearly more reliable than those already available (thoroughly checked out with musical and historical experts, not just thrown together). The translations have already been done well--representing years of work--and published as noted here, at least for English and French; and any serious researcher is going to consult the German anyway, along with these. (Sub-point, though: informal discussion of this stuff on the internet is not a serious research forum, in any recognizable way!)

If quoting something from this material, whether the German is also quoted or not, doesn't it make sense to use the published (and reliable) English of The New Bach Reader verbatim, to provide an appropriate rendering of the text? It's also instructive, and an excellent exercise, to compare the English of The Bach Reader with The New Bach Reader whenever looking up any transla; some of them did change, in light of more recent information or simply a clearer rendering of the English.

An earlier posting by me, from July 11th 2006, mentioning these same books as excellent resources: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/18331
I don't know why that message hasn't been archived at bach-cantatas.com yet; I tried looking up "Cantagrel" in the search engine, but no luck.

Thomas Braatz wrote (September 19, 2006):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
>>Ummm....what does "lost" mean?<<
Exactly what it says! There are manuscripts and printed editions which lack some or all of the musical information available in the autograph Bach score or the original set of parts. It is impossible for the Albert Riemenschneider Edition to have presented all of the information of the original sources. If the Riemenschneider edition has included the texts for all of the chorales, then it is claiming to have a crystal ball from which it reads these texts, for no one in the world today can claim to know which specific verse was harmonized by Bach for those cantatas, Passions, motets, etc. where the music has been lost without a trace since Bach's death. Also, it is highly unlikely that the Riemenschneider Edition has provided all the cross references for all the titles and all the chorale melodies. If this edition were truly a scholarly masterpiece providing important information that might not be found anywhere else, it would have at least received a single reference in the 376 scholarly pages of the NBA KB which treats this group of 4-pt. chorales in much greater detail than a $12.00, outdated Schirmer publication which happens to be open on a desk somewhere.

BL: had written: >>I have the Albert Riemenschneider edition (1941, Schirmer) right here open on my desk, carried here from its home on the harpsichord. Its pages 113-162 "Notes on the 371 chorales" include all the sung texts and all the instrumentation. This section also tells which of the chorales come from now-lost other compositions: a tantalizing look into the body of lost cantatas! This terrific book is still readily available for under $12.00 USD. I'd call this one especially "indispensable" for anyone interested in Bach's musical idiom....<<
and
>>Broader point: Riemenschneider's 1941 edition used the same printing as the "real" B&H, merely doing a cut-and-paste to cram more staves onto each page. Its special value is in all the commentary that comes with it.<<
Unfortunately, the "real" B&H, although it provides the keystone for collections of this sort, is not the final word in describing the entire range of 4-pt. settings of chorales which have come to light since 1941. While interesting as an introduction to this subject matter, it does not provide sufficiently correct and up-to-date scholarship regarding every aspect of the wide range of Bach's 4-pt. chorale settings. It would be a worthwhile endeavor for anyone who possesses and cherishes the Riemenschneider edition to check with the information given in the lists provided on the BCW. Any contradictions or apparent errors would, without a doubt, have to be due to the Riemenschneider edition and not the NBA. Certainly a true scholar would be best served by consulting the BCW and leave this Riemenschneider edition to those beginners or anyone not particularly concerned about current Bach scholarship who wish to have a cheap, direct copy in hand to study and play from. The NBA found nothing in the Riemenschneider edition commentary worth considering since this information was probably available from the original Erk edition which I had described in my article.

BL: also wrote: >>I also have a 20th century "EDITION BREITKOPF" book "Johann Sebastian Bach, 371 Four-Part Chorales" as reprinted by Associated Music Publishers Inc, New York, claiming to be "sole authoritative American reprint of the original Breitkopf & Härtel edition". This book doesn't have the section of Riemenschneider's commentary, but otherwise it's the identical set of music to the above. A nice feature of this one is that the cross-references from one piece to another are tipped into the title on each piece, instead of elsewhere in the book's index.<<
I have this edition which I used since I was a boy. There are only a few 'cf.'s after the titles which simply point out the doublets (and triplets). You will find much more valuable information in the Breitkopf list which you have not yet had a chance to look at carefully.

Should you, or anyone else for that matter, find anything that needs correction, elucidation, or addition, submit this information to Aryeh Oron, WebMaster of the BCW in the manner which he prescribes at the end of the list.

BL: >>And, of course, the NBA itself is also available, providing thorough detail about everything yet again. Baerenreiter offers its performance edition as one of their usual NBA offprints, blue cover #5237, for a reasonable price (28.50 EUR).<<
"thorough detail about everything yet again" This is certainly highly imaginary hyperbole on your part. Imagine trying to cram 376 scholarly pages of the NBA KB into the printed music of the NBA and reduce the size of the pages..and sell it for 28.50 EUR. And how many of readers on this list and those who consult the BCW will be able to read all the important fine print in German if they are even able to obtain a copy of the NBA KBs in question?

BL: >>Fine, and the cross-listing is useful, but: why go to the trouble of redoing something that already exists (and done very well indeed) both in print and on the web? For the latter I'm referring to the site by Margaret Greentree.<<
Other than using the open score format where each voice has its own staff, how does the BCW Breitkopf listing simply repeat everything that Margaret Greentree has presented?

On the contrary, I believe that Margaret Greentree is very thankful to receive information based on serious Bach scholarship from the BCW and will incorporate this information to update and improve the excellent work she has already done.

BL: <<I'm just not convinced yet of any necessary value that has been added, above materials that are already readily available: the NBA, Riemenschneider, et al. (Only the internet convenience of being "free and worth every penny" as the saying goes?)<<
I believe all the points made here have aleady been covered:

1. a performing reprint of the NBA does not replace the necessary additional information supplied by the NBA KB - any true Bach scholar is aware of this!

2. the Riemenschneider edition as mainly a copy of earlier publications in Germany does not provide the current state of Bach scholarship (this may not be important to anyone simply wanting to get acquainted with them and not concerned about serious, scholarly efforts that will bring the reader up to date on everything that has happened over the last 60-70 years)

3. "the only authorized American reprint of the original" Associated Music Publishers, Inc. offers the following 'Prefatory Note':

>>The present edition of the chorale harmonizations by Johann Sebastian Bach differs from earlier editions in the greater authenticity and accuracy of its contents. The original readings of Bach, which, partly by intention and partly through carelessness, had suffered changes in the original editions (1765-1787) have here been faithfully restored, so far as a return to the sources made it possible to do so. But the order of sequence of the individual numbers, the titles, and the keys have been left unchanged out of consideration fro the practical aims of the collection. The same consideration has made it seem proper to leave in their places the few chorale harmonizations that are duplicated. It has been through sufficient to add cross-references.<<
There is nothing new here at all except for a few cross references in parentheses. There is no indication just where, specifically, the attempts were made to attain 'greater authenticity and accuracy of its contents'. This is certainly not a scholarly effort!

BL: >>It's the same general argument I have anew translations, unless they're clearly adding new scholarly and peer-reviewed value to serious research of the topics. For example, most of the extant Bach documentation is covered very well among the three published collections: Bach-Dokumente (in German), The New Bach Reader (newer and in English), and Bach en son temps by Gilles Cantagrel (in French, 1997). The latter, which is probably the least familiar to readers here.<<
Other than for someone being very fluent in French, how does the Cantagrel translation offer anything at all to Bach list members or for those who refer to the BCW (which is in English)? Certainly another attempt at focusing upon the original source and rendering it into good English (with commentary) is much preferable to an outdated English translation which offers little or no commentary. How many English-speaking individuals have read the NBR translation of the quotations recently shared from the Bach-Dokumente and have had hardly any concept at all as to what "die Methode" meant in Bach's time? It is imperative that readers be given a deeper understanding of words and concepts with which they are relatively unacquainted lest they simply 'read over' certain words and think that they have grasped the depth of meaning inherent in certain words which are not part of our present-day vocabulary. Because we lack the experience of relating certain concepts and ideas to a word that looks like one we ought to know, we fool ourselves into thinking we do know its meaning; however, in reality, we lack the experience in thinking about it the same way that Bach's contemporaries did.

BL: >>Beyond these resources in these three languages I don't see the point in having new translations to the same languages, unless they're clearly more reliable than those already available (thoroughly checked out with musical and historical experts, not just thrown together). The translations have already been done well--representing years of work--and published as noted here, at least for English and French; and any serious researcher is going to consult the German anyway, along with these. (Sub-point, though: informal discussion of this stuff on the internet is not a serious research forum, in any recognizable way!)<<
Translations are not by nature frozen in time although there are some classic translations that last longer than others. Spending years of work on something and succeeding in getting it published is no guarantee for the quality of the work done. Who judges whether something is "more reliable" than what has appeared in print? A good, quality effort will need to be tested time and time again. Remember what happened with C.P.E. Bach when he did not reap the handsome profit from his father's work as he had expected. He unleashed a published diatribe against the editor and publisher of his father's chorale settings while pointing out of what poor quality their efforts were. What has a recent scholarly examination and comparison of C.P.E. Bach's own efforts with the efforsts of those whom he attacked as having offered an inferior product uncovered: there is little difference between them in regard to accuracy and quality other than that C.P.E. Bach removed a few settings which were not by his father (a process which still continues today!). C.P.E. Bach thought that he was "more reliable" and those who revered or still revere him as the son of a famous father are blinded by other personal aspects attached to the Bach name; but the reality of the situation is the C.P.E. Bach and his adherents in this regard had not clear conception of whose work was more reliable than that of others. The situation with translations is rather similar: can a Brad Lehman who clearly has his own set of prejudices when approaching a translation truly know or judge what is "more
reliable"?

BL: >>If quoting something from this material, whether the German is also quoted or not, doesn't it make sense to use the published (and reliable) English of The New Bach Reader verbatim, to provide an appropriate rendering of the text?<<
Not if one thinks one can improve on it. Why should the same translation (with the same misconceptions formed in the minds of the readers) be regurgitated over and over again, when a new and different insight would be more helpful. Repeat a certain sequence of words over and over again and the mind becomes dull to the possible finer nuances that a passage contains.

BL: >>It's also instructive, and an excellent exercise, to compare the English of The Bach Reader with The New Bach Reader whenever looking up any translation; some of them did change, in light of more recent information or simply a clearer rendering of the English.<<
Ah, do you see? There is always room for improvement!

Aryeh Oron wrote (September 20, 2006):
Bradley Lehman asked:
"Fine, and the cross-listing is useful, but: why go to the trouble of redoing something that already exists (and done very well indeed) both in print and on the web? For the latter I'm referring to the site by Margaret Greentree."
Thomas Braatz answered
"Other than using the open score format where each voice has its own staff, how does the BCW Breitkopf listing simply repeat everything that Margaret Greentree has presented?
On the contrary, I believe that Margaret Greentree is very thankful to receive information based on serious Bach scholarship from the BCW and will incorporate this information to update and improve the excellent work she
has already done."
Margaret Greentree approved presenting her files at the BCW. Couple of months ago she also wrote to me as follows, regarding the CM & CT project:
"This giant project is a very much larger scale of the database I created in FileMaker of the chorale melodies for my own use.
The database you are working on is more detailed and more up to date. I was basing my data on Charles Sanford Terry and Peter Williams.
Your project looks very good, I am looking forward to using it in the future."

The tune in BWV 107, 73, and 658 (et al)

Bradley Lehman wrote (September 22, 2006):
Here's a recycling of a rather old piece of work by me, from 1995. It's a sample of texts and translations that were all used with the same familiar tune. The Bach connection is several of the cantatas, and an organ setting.
http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/misc/fillette.htm

This was for a grad-school lecture. I used a harpsichord to play through and talk about variation sets, and excerpts from other ensemble/keyboard/vocal pieces: showing how the tune got reused, and how its melody and harmonizations gradually evolved across several centuries. A whole lecture about a single melody, having a widespread life to it.

At the very least, some of this might be interesting to anyone who cares about the tune for the chorales "Von Gott will ich nicht lassen", "Helft mir Gotts Güte preisen", or "Was willst du dich betrüben" (as in Bach's cantata BWV 107). This tune also appears in cantata BWV 73 with a text that I missed reproducing at the time, "Das ist des Vaters wille". Well, it's merely one of the later stanzas within "Von Gott will ich nicht lassen".... If the 1998 edition of BWV had existed at the time, I would have caught that one too! :)

The lecture's main point was to trace the history of the tune through various instrumental and vocal pieces, across centuries. I had a handout list I'd assembled, with more than 100 examples using this same melody. I started by collating Mischiati's and Wendland's lists, and then adding any others I had found elsewhere, in chronological seque. This set of translations was the second handout, just to give people the background of the range of texts used with this melody. Some of the extramusical themes are wildly dissimilar, which is what got me onto this tune in the first place...beyond it being an attractive tune used by Byrd, Frescobaldi, Charpentier, Bach and many others. The tune got at least as far as Canada in the 17^th century, by French Jesuit missionaries to evangelize the natives! To assemble that set of translations I spent several weeks looking up any translations that had already been done, or working out new ones in consultation with colleagues.

Then later that year I posted that handout file to a newsgroup, and somebody apparently archived it onto the web from that discussion. I don't claim to be any manner of great translator. This was merely one required degree project, to research the source material and prepare a (hopefully interesting) public lecture on some musically relevant topic. Fun to do, although all the minutiae aren't as interesting (to me) as the musical results in the compositions using that tune.

Analyzing chorale-based movements

Bradley Lehman wrote (November 7, 2006):
>>I have examined them. They have most of their thematic notes on the main beats....<<
< "Most thematic notes on the main beats" This is progress of a sort to admit that the regular, logical rules do not always apply! So it is not 'absurd' nor does it cause 'disbelief' on your part when Bach does this type of variation and embellishment of a chorale melody. >
Do spare us the patronizing, bitte. Rather, we should try to build up a working comprehension of the fundamental differences among types of chorale-based compositions.

"Progress of a sort"! Good cow, what a patronizing quip. Progress of a sort, in what direction? Understanding of the material, one hopes? Understanding of chorale-based formulas actually used by Bach in his music, as opposed to made-up esoterica in chorale treasure hunts?

Let's look at the formulas used in the music that has been presented for discussion.

The organ examples that were pressed into service as "evidence" here were (I repeat, and I didn't originate them within this discussion):
- Georg Böhm’s “Vater unser im Himmelreich”
- Dietrich Buxtehude’s “Herr Christ der einge Gottessohn” BuxWV 192
- Bach’s „Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland“ BWV 659
- Bach’s „Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr’“ BWV 662, BWV 663, BWV 664, BWV 676, BWV 677.

With nearly infinite patience I'll point out that I know that particular Buxtehude piece ("Herr Christ", BuxWV 192) well enough to have performed it on a 20-concert tour in Germany, and to have produced a recording of it on a commercially-available CD. It's track 12 right here: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/cd1001.html
There's a link on there to go listen to part of that track 12, or to download various other tracks from that album. So, let's not hear any patronizing nonsense about my presumed ignorance of this material. Any record-collectors who have also recorded this repertoire themselves are quite welcome to present their own recordings, for comparison on ways to perform the music effectively.

Now, let's continue.

Those Böhm and Buxtehude pieces, plus BWV 659 "Nun komm" and the "Allein Gott" BWV 662, are all four of the type where we have an improvisationally-based melody being played in the right hand, on a separate manual with a solo registration, against the accompaniment of several other contrapuntal lines in left hand and pedal. The melodic ornamentation, lavish as it is, still gets the main notes of the chorale to hit on the beats where they would have been anyway, if merely playing the melody without any embellishments, and accompanied by the same speed of harmonic motion. I have some additional examples of this compositional style, by Buxtehude, right there on that same CD elaborating different chorales.... In each of these, one could still sing along using the original chorale: slowly and hitting the main beats of the piece, instead of adjusting speed with ludicrous lurches as it goes along, or acCENting wrong syllaBLES.

And THAT'S the point here: the presence of the chorale isn't some gamewhere we have to grab isolated notes out of the middle of beats, inrhythms that have nothing to do with they way they'd be sung. Example, as noted yesterday: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/20168
...where we have to snatch at "bleibt" and "verlassen" and other bits, at bizarre places at the end of beats, to force it to work out. As I pointed out in my remarks there, the first phrase is there in the quoted violin line; but the other stuff after that is so forced as to be unbelievable. The words from "recht kindlich kann" go twice as fast for a while, and then they become grossly spaced apart later, slowly and irregularly...all to force these notes to "be" thematic ACCORDING TO THE ANALYSIS but not according to the composition.

The only NAIVE similarity here, comparing those several organ examples against the BWV 139 snippet, is that a bunch of other notes happen between those. It's not as if all the in-between note spinning is of equal value or function, however! (Well, maybe it is when considered both naively and esoterically, and not really knowing how to compose or improvise music according to this particular formula? Wherever the composer was foolish enough to revisit a melodic note in passing, by coincidence, his enterprise of free material should be punished by
having that note colored red and accused of being thematic?)

Two important distinctions, the first being reiterated here for emphasis:

- (1) In those organ pieces, the harmony is still moving at the speed it would be if we were merely playing the denuded chorale notes; whereas in that pick-and-choose example from BWV 139 the words (i.e. providing their melodic notes from the original chorale) are going at wildly varying speeds.

- (2) Orchestral tutti parts for violins have nothing to do with embellished solo melody, as to being ornamented up to beautify the expression, like the demonstration in these particular organ pieces (or
in "O Mensch" BWV 622, for further example). Those violin parts, here in BWV 139, are within a substantially different type of chorale setting: the type that uses Vorimitation phrase by phrase, as I have already mentioned. They set up the cantus firmus, phrase by phrase. They are part of the accompaniment setting up the way the chorale will be sung by the soprano.

To find all the violinistic stuff that belongs with the words "recht kindlich kann..." one needs to flip over to the next page in BWV 139's chorus, there, immediately after the soprano has sung the first phrase of chorale. Sure enough, the Vorimitation of phrase 2 starts right there, again in the violin, exactly where one would expect it to do for compositions using this formula: here in its normal accentuation and speed, and not previously (as shown in the red-highlighted guesswork) with snatched offbeats.

To find another useful analytical example for THAT type of composition (with Vorimitation), one could easily use Bach's "Vor deinen Thron" BWV 668, or any of a handful of others from various years of Bach's career...or Pachelbel's, or Michael Bach's, or any of dozens of other composers--as I already mentioned (in my postings that got dismissed as if it were somehow "dodging" the question)! This Vorimitation thing is its own style of chorale-based composition, going phrase by phrase, and it does line up with the compositional formula used in the BWV 139 opening movement. The embellished-melody examples do not.

These embellished-solo examples also do not support the previous round of guesswork: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Scores/BWV115-Sco.htm
either, and for similar reasons: failure to recognize the typical manners in which chorale elaboration is done, with Bach's own extant models.

The five "Allein Gott" organ compositions cited above don't support the opening movements of BWV 115 and BWV 139. They're just examples of other techniques of elaboration (but still hitting the thematic notes
properly on the beats!).

Those techniques of elaboration (as seen in all these organ compositions) are not used in the way the questioned analyses
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Scores/BWV115-Sco.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Scores/BWV139-Sco.htm
would force upon us. The problem is the analyses themselves (being a bunch of esoteric picking-and-choosing, and ignoring whatever notes don't fit; a method that can yield pretty much any chorale or other "thematic" bit, simply by being selective enough and naive enough with the note-searching).

Once again repeating the complaint noted above:
< "Most thematic notes on the main beats" This is progress of a sort to admit that the regular, logical rules do not always apply! So it is not 'absurd' nor does it cause 'disbelief' on your part when Bach does this type of variation and embellishment of a chorale melody. >
The point is: Bach didn't necessarily do THAT type of variation that is pressed upon us by those particular analyses, with their red and blue treasure-hunting notes hopefully suggesting hidden meaning. At least, not on the allegedly relevant evidence of the handful of organ chorale preludes that were presented in alleged support of that! If that's the type of support offered, as examples, then those analyses are absurd by their own game: because they don't fit the methods illustrated in those examples!

Bach did his musical elaborations in ways that preserved the basic rhythm and harmonies; not spreading out his notes with random distances between them, to be "revealed" by coloring coincidental passing notes a different color as if they were thematic.

=====

If the goal is to patronize accomplished musicians, why not do it in a positive respectful way (such as buying our recordings and attending our concerts!)? That's better than issuing public insults about the way we're allegedly clueless, or overruling normal musical analysis with naive/esoteric twiddling that doesn't match its own cited examples of evidence.

Instead, what do we have? An endless series of whining, begging, and wheedling that the free music lessons (like this one) given out by me on the internet aren't adequate. Well then, go enroll in a real music school, and/or take real organ lessons, if this free stuff isn't good enough! When my three-year-old asks for help understanding something, she actually listens to the answers instead of complaining immediately that they're wrong. And she doesn't go posting doodoo all over the internet about the way she thinks I'm not qualified to do my job, either as her dad or as her music teacher. It's refreshing to be respected by someone who comes to the material enthusiastically, and who listens to expert explanations. She also enjoys listening to music, more than arguing about it.

Ed Myskowski wrote (November 7, 2006):
>> This is progress of a sort to admit that the regular, logical rules do not always apply! <snip>
< "Progress of a sort"! Good cow, what a patronizing quip. Progress of a sort, in what direction? >
Before reading this post, I have just responded to an earlier one. In my response I used the phrase <progress of some sort>.

I want to be absolutely clear, that is pure coincidence. I make every effort to avoid being inflammatory. If I had seen the present post first, I would have chosen some other phrase.

Bradley Lehman wrote (November 7, 2006):
[To Ed Myskowski] But coincidences mean EVERYTHING, or so we're admonished by some types of compositional analyses! :)

And anyway, the phrase "every effort to avoid being inflammatory" is key here; even if the phrase "progress of some sort" here has almost all the same words, it's in a different context from the other one. Yours isn't a proposal to overturn logic, or to overturn reason, or to throw academic methods of musical analysis out the window in favor of something else (all being inflammatory activities).

Yours comes across as friendly munching of a handful of the beer nuts, instead of casting the beer nuts away as if they were poison.

(Apologies to anyone who happens to have a peanut allergy.)

Neil Halliday wrote (November 8, 2006):
Actually, finding "Bach" in "Erbarme dich" is not analogous to finding the notes of the relevant chorale in the unison string line at the start of the ritornello of BWV 115, for example, because the former is entirely fortuitous, while the latter may (or may not) indeed point to some (albeit loose, maybe unconscious on the part of the composer) tonal relationship between the construction of the ritornello and the chorale melody.

I agree that this is not analogous to finding the notes of a chorale in a highly embellished arrangement of a chorale melody that we find for example in BWV 622 ("O Man , bewail thy grievous sin"), or to Bach's frequent use of "Vorimitation" in ritornellos or other non `cantus firmus' parts. Still, I found it interesting to "hear" in my mind's eye the relevant chorale at the start of BWV 115 (even if in a non-literal manner) as highlighted in red notes in Tom Braatz's examples.

Thanks to Brad for coming up with his eventually more constructive criticism of Tom's method - an improvement on the derisory response formerly displayed.

Thomas Braatz wrote (November 8, 2006):
Brad Lehman wrote:
BL: >>Do spare us the patronizing, bitte. Rather, we should try to build up a working comprehension of the fundamental differences among types of chorale-based compositions.<<
That is exactly what is being accomplished here: a recognition of such formulae as "Vorimitation" (a term that has been around a long time and which describes precisely just one major type of "chorale variation", the purpose of which is to prepare for the entrance of the cantus firmus. It does this usually by presenting a portion/phrase of the CM [chorale melody] in shorter notation as a fugal subject. I am very glad that other list members/readers can read about this feature which commonly occurs in the chorale cantatas.

However, there are other types of CM references in Bach's music that have been discovered and are known to great Bach scholars but are still unknown or unrecognized by musicians and musicologists whose acquaintance with and knowledge of Bach's cantatas (and sacred music) are much less than that which they profess to have. It is probably natural for the latter to build up a defense against that which they do not understand in order to preserve what they do know against new insights which they are still unable to grasp because they have yet to be exposed fully to all of Bach's sacred music. Their immediate reaction is to sanctify with exclusionary rules the knowledge they do posses in order to defend it against anything that does not fit their prescribed formulae.

BL: >>"Progress of a sort"! Good cow, what a patronizing quip. Progress of a sort, in what direction? Understanding of the material, one hopes? Understanding of chorale-based formulas actually used by Bach in his music, as opposed to made-up esoterica in chorale treasure hunts?<<
"made-up esoterica in chorale treasure hunts?"

What about made-up esoterica used as the basis for establishing how Bach supposedly tuned his keyboard instruments (and even other instruments as well) and which then would allegedly change how everyone today will begin to hear Bach's musiin the future differently?

What about basing the 'Rosetta-stone' discovery of Bach's supposed temperament upon circular decorations at the top of the title page of Bach's WTC1, then turning this decoration, which was fairly common at that time in both handwritten and printed material, upside-down and finally mistaking a commonly applied serif for a letter of the alphabet from which a middle-C on the keyboard is determined, the latter being critical for establishing the beginning point for setting the temperament, and finally counting the loops backwards (from left to right when viewing the page normally?

BL: >>Let's look at the formulas used in the music that has been presented for discussion.<<
Let's look at some more examples from the cantatas before deciding that Bach followed some rather strict rules that have been imposed on his music by certain musicians who do not want others to use 'esoterica' (using 'esoterica' as a privilege granted only to those who have passed a graduate course in music theory and must be applied only in those instances by this select group of individuals where it is favorable for coming up with new ideas which are then copyrighted and controlled by them).

BL: >> Any record-collectors who have also recorded this repertoire themselves are quite welcome to present their own recordings, for comparison on ways to perform the music effectively.<<
Let me understand this generous action correctly: In this exclusionary offer to the BCML, Brad Lehman is gracious enough to allow others to present to the BCML their recordings of the same piece for comparison, but these 'record-collectors' must also have recorded themselves playing this piece, then put it into their record collection (hopefully including recordings by other artists such as Brad Lehman) before a true comparison can be allowed. Also, it seems to imply that great organists, who may not be record collectors as such and who have recorded this work for major labels would also be excluded because they did not record this piece by themselves, but had sound engineers accomplishing this task for them.

BL: >>With nearly infinite patience I'll point out..<<
This is very necessary and helpful since it took quite a while for your response to my questions to appear so that a discussion could develop from your repeated accusation that almost all of the score samples were 'absurd'.

BL: >>The organ examples that were pressed into service as "evidence"<<
"pressed into service as 'evidence'.."?

They were my examples which were closest to what you might understand since almost no one on this list could avoid finding out sooner or later (as you keep reminding us) that you play the organ. Ideally, more examples, which I will continue to submit to the BCW from Bach's sacred music, would have been better, but since you had difficulties coming to terms with what I presented, I decided that some examples from organ music already included among the detailed listings for the CMs would have to suffice as a quick measure. If you continue showing immense patience during the coming weeks (who knows?), perhaps you will view a sufficient number of examples from the cantatas so that you can come to a better understanding of just how Bach does have references to the CM in various places and with irregular patterns throughout a cantata. Setting up arbitrary rules such as 'this doesn't happen in an orchestral line' while the same feature/pattern may occur elsewhere, is the equivalent to setting up road blocks to potential insights and knowledge.

I reiterate for purposes of clarity: the samples are of varying degrees of certainty. While some are derived from the work of Smend and Dürr, others which I have detected are:

a) emulation on my part of similar evidence given by the above Bach experts

b) my own choices which may amount only to mere suggestions to ponder

This score samples are offered as a potential aid to a better understanding of another aspect of Bach's compositional techniques.

In approaching Bach's music for appreciation and understanding, I find that the method of keeping an open mind on many matters that have not yet been codified by solid scholarship is much more helpful than prematurely shutting down an investigation with vehement and insistent criticism and the application of 'logical' rules invented on the spot. Until one has effectively studied and analyzed all of the Bach cantatas (a never-ending process, but certainly by hearing various recordings/performances repeatedly with score in hand a certain degree of deeper understanding and appreciation does occur), it is a dangerous undertaking to limit Bach's compositional techniques with 'school rules' and a limited exposure to his vocal sacred music. It is also important to realize that it is possible to have performed or listened to a specific composition by Bach on innumerable occasions without having understood a specific aspect of his genius, an aspect which may or may not reveal itself much later when the right moment for understanding appears or when an insight is presented in any of the various media that finally 'rings a bell.' Judging Bach's music with its eternal qualities is a precarious undertaking, particularly when one approaches it with mind-set and attitude such as that which already prevailed among some theoreticians/experts soon after Bach's death: "Look at that! Bach has some parallel fifths in his composition, but that's a real 'No-no'!" This type of observation, while interesting to ponder for a moment, does not lead to a lively insight which fills the soul with understanding and admiration. It is simply that some 'lesser-light' is working with commonly established rules which are temporary in nature when one considers the course of music since Bach's time. A much better approach, in lieu of the direct one, an inexpressible emotional experience, is to attempt to reach an appreciation through understanding. For this insights expressed in words and musical samples are usually necessary. These insights are at first very much like tender plants. A human foot (or an elephant foot) can easily kill off a tender seedling. As the insight/seedling grows larger it must then stand firmly against all the others plants/weeds or succumb to their greater power. Likewise, contrary ideas/objections/corrections/additions are expected as a test of viability at this stage of development of an idea or insight. Unjustifiable (based upon incomplete knowledge) criticism applied crudely at the incipient stage inflicts great damage. Justifiable criticism applied against a young adult plant (the young seedling having grown larger) is a necessary process, a selection of the fittest, most comprehensible, and most reasonable ideas.

Bradley Lehman wrote (November 8, 2006):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< However, there are other types of CM references in Bach’s music that have been discovered and are known to great Bach scholars but are still unknown or unrecognized by musicians and musicologists whose acquaintance with and knowledge of Bach’s cantatas (and sacred music) are much less than that which they profess to have. It is probably natural for the latter to build up a defense against that which they do not understand in order to preserve what they do know against new insights which they are still unable to grasp because they have yet to be exposed fully to all of Bach’s sacred music. Their immediate reaction is to sanctify with exclusionary rules the knowledge they do posses in order to defend it against anything that does not fit their prescribed formulae. >
Is there ANY comprehension how patronizing/condescending that is, in addition to being pure speculation (and SELF-SERVING speculation on your part!) about experts being stupid/ignorant?

I see that the time I've put into explaining the material has been pretty much wasted, then. It's just overruled, YET AGAIN, by this kind of [*****] refusing to listen to academically-sound explanations.

Continue on Part 6