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Cantata BWV 82
Ich habe genug
Discussions - Part 3 |
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Continue from Part 2 |
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BWV 82 with flute |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (October 9, 2004)
[59] This morning I happened upon a stray (but new, sealed) copy of the Bostridge/Biondi disc with BWV 82 "Ich habe genug", BWV 55, and fillers. Lovely performance, recorded in 2000. It was available at a price that was impossible to refuse.....
In BWV 82 it's noticeable right away, in addition to the transposition up to E minor for soprano tessitura (here an octave lower for Bostridge's tenor) from Bach's 1731 version, they've also opted for that 1731 use of a flute instead of the oboe. Bach himself recycled the piece four or five times after the original 1727, always with oboe except in 1731. I have about a dozen other recordings of the piece, but can't recall any that use flute like this. Are there others besides this Bostridge/Biondi? |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (October 9, 2004)
[To Bradley Lehman] Yes.
Peter Schreier with Barbara Hendricks (soprano) uses flute: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV82-Rec5.htm [37]
Dale Higbee with Theresa Radomski (Soprano) uses recorder: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV82-Rec6.htm [52]
Pieter Jan Lesusink with Marjon Strijk (Soprano) uses transverse flute: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV82-Rec6.htm [48] |
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Neil Halliday wrote (October 10, 2004)
Bradley Lehman wrote:
[59]<"This morning I happened upon a stray (but new, sealed) copy of the Bostridge/Biondi disc with BWV 82 "Ich habe genug", BWV 55, and fillers. Lovely performance, recorded in 2000>".
I bought this CD some time ago, on the recommendation of TNT.
At first I had a problem with the 'gestural' nature of some of the articulation on the strings, but I have since grown to enjoy this CD. (But I'm still not keen on Biondi's antics in the BWV 4 Sinfonia - even if not quite as bad as Harnoncourt who actually plays some of the opening chords staccato). Overall, the CD has a lovely relaxing ambience, aided by Bostridge's pleasing, 'easy-on-the-ear' voice.
As well as the lovely BWV 82, 'Der Ewigkeit saphirnes Haus' from BWV 198, and 'Des Vaters Stimme liess sich hoeren' from BWV 7, are spectacular.
BTW, after borrowing your "kicking ass" expression for my report on the BWV 29 Sinfonia recordings, I realised that this is a two-edged sword - it can be quite painful. Yesterday I turned off a radio performance of 'Summer' (from Vivaldi's 4 Seasons) by this same group (Biondi/Europa Galante) because of the wild variations in tempi between fast and slow sections, and the frenetic bowing in the fast passages that reduced the writing in the lower strings to mere noise. I'm afraid that 'kicking ass' did not work for me in that case. |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (October 10, 2004)
Neil Halliday wrote:
[59] < BTW, after borrowing your "kicking ass" expression for my report on the BWV 29 Sinfonia recordings, I realised that this is a two-edged sword - it can be quite painful. Yesterday I turned off a radio performance of 'Summer' (from Vivaldi's 4 Seasons) by this same group (Biondi/Europa Galante) because of the wild variations in tempi between fast and slow sections, and the frenetic bowing in the fast passages that reduced the writing in the lower strings to mere noise. I'm afraid that 'kicking ass' did not work for me in that case. >
Allowing a piece of music to "kick ass" itself is not the same thing as doing aggressive or arbitrary things with it. (Just clarifying that; not saying anything one way or another about Biondi's Vivaldi....) |
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51 and 82 in Boston |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (October 8, 2004):
Charlie McCarn wrote:
"Would all of you who send messages to the BachCantatas and the BachRecordings Lists daily or frequently please let the Lists' members know what your "credentials" are or provide links to your personal web pages so we can find out"
Sean Burton wrote:
< To all concerned:
Though I am new to the list and haven't contributed as extensively as others yet, if you are interested in my credentials, check out: http://bostonorpheus.org and click on the "Sean Burton" link for a professional biography. >
Hey, good luck on tonight's and this weekend's gigs! Looks like a terrific program there with cantatas BWV 51 and BWV 82, and the Pergolesi.
I see you're doing a soprano transposition of BWV 82. What do you think of Lorraine Hunt Lieberson's recording there, with Smith and the local band [53]? Some of our earlier discussions of it are here: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV82-D2.htm
I played and sang through the "Schlummert ein" version from Magdalena's book, for late-night enjoyment, just a couple of weeks ago. Always a favorite.
What d'ye think of the use of the Pergolesi in the film "Jesus de Montreal"? I felt that that they made really poignant points with it, and it's a wonderful film (not only for that reason). |
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Score of Cantata BWV 82a for soprano |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (August 2, 2005):
I got the message below from a soprano singer, who would like like to perform Cantata BWV 82a and is looking for the score. I hope you can help her.
Thanks,
I am a great fan of your website on Bach. I am a soprano soloist and would love to perform BWV 82a Ich habe genug. However, I have been trying for some time, unsuccessfully, to get hold of a score. Do you happen to know who publishes this work in its soprano version? Any ideas would be most appreciated. Thanks. |
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Thomas Braatz wrote (August 2, 2005):
Aryeh Oron wrote:
>>I got the message below from a soprano singer, who would like like to perform Cantata BWV 82a and is looking for the score.<<
Neither the Bach Werke Verzeichnis (BWV) nor the NBA I/28.1 recognizes the existence of a BWV 82a. It is not a bona fide current designation.
The NBA, however, gives 3 separate full-score versions of this cantata, all of them simply listed as BWV 82.
1. Version in C minor for Bass (according to the autograph score) (Oboe), (strings) and (bc) and Bass voice - only the latter is clearly marked as such on the score.
2. Version in C minor for Bass or Mezzo Soprano (according to the original parts from the 1730s and 1740s) (Oboe) Strings, Continuo, Organo, Bass or Mezzo Soprano - only the oboe part not clearly designated.
3. Version in E minor for Soprano (only the soprano and Flauto traverso parts exist in this key clearly designated as such.) The NBA gives a reconstruction of this cantata (the other missing parts are filled in based on the other versions.)
In order to obtain a feeling for the required vocal range and, more importantly, tessitura of this cantata, a purchase of the Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach (1725) ["Das Clavier-Büchlein vor Anna Magdalena Bachin Anno 1725"] would indeed be helpful. Item 34 includes the Recitativo and Aria "Schlummert ein," the latter in the key of G major as given in Version 3 above. A quick glance at the latter two mvts. with the aria in G major indicates that the high G (on top of the treble clef) is sung 8 times, mostly touched upon very quickly, while the time spent in the lower register in singing low G's, D's and E's is considerable. This, and particularly the last aria, is the type of mvt. that Ruth Holton and others like her would have problems with in the low range since her voice is unable to produce much, if any, volume in this range.
The last aria "Ich freue mich auf den Tod" is even more problematical: it has long sustained notes on a low B. Imagine even enterinon a low B singing "Ich freue mich!"
If after investigating the AMB Notebook 1725, you still feel that your voice is suitable for this cantata, then try to examine the reconstructed version in the NBA [Neue Bach-Ausgabe] I/28.1 pp. 155ff. This should be available at university libraries, perhaps even through interlibrary loan. |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (August 2, 2005):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< In order to obtain a feeling for the required vocal range and, more importantly, tessitura of this cantata, a purchase of the Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach (1725) ["Das Clavier-Büchlein vor Anna Magdalena Bachin Anno 1725"] would indeed be helpful. Item 34 includes the Recitativo and Aria "Schlummert ein," the latter in the key of G major as given in Version 3 above. A quick glance at the latter two mvts. with the aria in G major indicates that the high G (on top of the treble clef) is sung 8 times, mostly touched upon very quickly, while the time spent in the lower register in singing low G's, D's and E's is considerable. This, and particularly the last aria, is the type of mvt. that Ruth Holton and others like her would have problems with in the low range since her voice is unable to produce much, if any, volume in this range. >
<> "(...) Ruth Holton and others like her would have problems with in the low range since her voice is unable to produce much, if any, volume in this range." Ever met or heard live singing from Ruth Holton, or any singer "like her"? And what does "others like her" mean, anyway, as anything more than a frivolous ad hominem or ad feminem argument against her worthiness to perform Bach's music?
The source information about BWV 82 was fine, but why the gratuitous slam against musicians whose work Thomas Braatz does not appreciate and/or enjoy? It turned a nominally informative posting about the music into a polemic against specialists in Baroque singing techniques.
A singer interested in performing this piece might also try contacting the personnel from Ian Bostridge's recording, with Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante, to ask what they used on their music stands [59]. That's simply this soprano version with Bostridge singing it down an octave. |
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Doug Cowling wrote (August 2, 2005):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< 3. Version in E minor for Soprano (only the soprano and Flauto traverso parts exist in this key clearly designated as such.) The NBA gives a reconstruction of this cantata (the other missing parts are filled in based on the other versions.) >
I've never seen the score of the soprano version. Does Bach rearrange the music to suit the soprano voice? -- even up a third those low G's are still low B's for a soprano. It's interesting to compare Händel who often adapted his music for different voices, but was always careful to recast passages didn't suit the new range. |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (August 2, 2005):
Here is the Carus-Verlag Urtext of the soprano version: score and performing parts....
http://www.carus-verlag.com/index.php3?BLink=KKWerk&WerkID=3508
http://www.carus-verlag.com/index.php3?BLink=KKArtikel&ArtikelID=7965&Action=kkartikel
A sample first page of the score is available, and they say they carry a Freiburg Baroque Orchestra performance of that with Emma Kirkby: http://www.carus-verlag.com/index.php3?BLink=KKArtikel&ArtikelID=17664&Action=kkArtikel
These items are from a search of "Bach 82" at: http://www.carus-verlag.com/index.php3?BLink=Catalog
Carus is a fine performance edition for the Bach vocal music, with clean score and strong recent scholarship, and good page turns in the instrumental parts! I haven't had the pleasure of playing BWV 82 from this yet, but have played from some of their other editions in this series: strongly recommended. |
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John Pike wrote (August 2, 2005):
[To Bradley Lehman] <> I'm a great fan of Ruth HOLTON's singing, especially for Gardiner on SJP (BWV 245) and cantatas BWV 140/BWV 147, and in her recordings with Leusink.... excellent. She is a very fine singer indeed. <> |
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Dale Gedcke wrote (August 2, 2005):
[To John Pike] It's a curious study of human nature to see how people had different perceptions about the intent of Thomas's posting.
When I read it, I took no offense, because I thought Thomas was essentially emphasizing how difficult the upper and lower limits of the range are for a soprano. I read his reference to Ruth Holton to be a practical example of an excellent singer, who, nevertheless, would probably have difficulty with such an extremely low note. If it is difficult for such an expert, imagine how difficult it would be for less accomplished sopranos!
Maybe I am naive, or maybe I am not predisposed to look for the slightest hint of an ad hominem attack. To me, the gist of the posting was very helpful, i.e., pointing out how difficult the range is for a soprano in BWV 82. |
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Thomas Braatz wrote (August 2, 2005):
<> but I will not retreat from my assessment of her vocal capabilities (and those of a few other sopranos like her) in her low range which is based upon her efforts in the Leusink Bach Cantata Series. |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (August 2, 2005):
Suggesting to a singer checking if she feels comfortable with the singing part seems to me as a good advice, especially when it comes from somebody with experience of playing with singers.
On the other hand, singing Bach's vocal works is in usually a demanding task for every singer. It requires good technique, intelligence, sensitivity, expressive ability, etc. Not every singer excels in every dimension and it happens that singers are good in some parts and no so in others.
Ruth Holton is a singer with beautiful voice but limited vocal range. In some cantatas she is among the best while in others she leaves much to be desired, technically and/or emotionally. I cannot comprehend how a description of the performance by a certain singer could be considered as 'ad hominem'. Criticism of performers and/or description of their capabilities are in the nature of this list, and so it should.
Sorry that I have to say it ON-LIST. But it is about the time that people would stop seeing such descriptions as 'poison', personal attack, etc., etc..
Enough said...
BTW, except of the above reservations, I believe that the soprano singer, who post the question, would find most this discussion useful for her needs. |
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John Pike wrote (August 3, 2005):
[To Thomas Braatz] <> As a perfectly serious question, with no malign intent at all, I would like to know who "a few other sopranos like her" are. |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (August 5, 2005):
Here is the feedback I got from the soprano singer who had asked for help regarding the score of Cantata BWV 82a.
The discussion was edited and put at the page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV82-D3.htm
Interesting to see how our (edited) discussions are viewd from the outside
world.
Thanks for everybody who has taken part in the discussion.
**********************
Dear Aryeh
Thank you so much for the feedback. There is a wealth of scholarship and practical advice out there and your readers' views are all very helpful.
********************** |
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Neil Mason wrote (September 3, 2005):
[To Aryeh Oron] I am a month behind with my reading.
I wholeheartedly agree with those who "have reservations" about criticisms of professional musicians by others who do not have professional expertise and who clearly have a personal axe to grind without seeming to care about the consequences.
Apart from anything else, such criticisms are defammatory, and thus against the law in my country, if not in others. Such behaviour is simply indefensible in such a forum.
If I am breaking list protocol by such a posting, and geexpelled, too bad. I am thinking of unsubscribing anyway.
In the meantime thank you very much to Brad, Doug and others who normally enlighten in a civil manner. |
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Searching for title of aria and to what it belongs |
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Jim Groenebeld wrote (January 12, 2006):
Here I have a book with music for soprano recorder and piano by a.o. Bach, edited by Walter Bergmann. He must have rearranged original pieces of music quite drastically to make it playable for such a duo. One of the pieces is called Aria and it is very known to me, but I don't know its title and to which whole oratorium or cantata it belongs. Initially I thought it could be part of the SMP, but it isn't.
The melody line is as follows below. It is written in some kind of pseudo note code, where the numeric value behnd the note (e.g. a4, a quarter note, a crotchet) indicates the denominator of the note, if different from the previous note (doesn't that correspond to music coding in e.g. BASIC?). Similarly the value before the note indicates a (new) octave. BTW, what is simple common notation with just normal letters and digits in such a case, if any? Well, with such a notation the searched melody (possibly even transposed) is:
4b8 5c4 4b16 a g4 r8 g, 5f e4 d8 e d4 c16 4b, 5c8 g f# e d c 4b a, g f# g 5c 4b a4 r8, and so on. The # indicates a sharp and the time signature is 4/4; the commas indicate bar changes. Who can tell me the name of this aria and to what larger piece it belongs??? |
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John Reese wrote (January 13, 2006):
[To Jim Groeneveld] It's "Schlummert Ein" from cantata... shoot, I can't remember. It's for bass (or alternately, soprano) solo. Original key was e-flat. |
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Monte Garrett wrote (January 13, 2006):
[To John Reese] "Schlummert Ein" is from "Ich habe genug" (BWV 82), 3rd movement. |
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Jim Groenebeld wrote (January 13, 2006):
[To John Reese & Monte Garrett] Thank you all very much, John and Monte,
This really is the quick way. I'll have a look into the score. |
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Jim Groenebeld wrote (January 13, 2006):
Reuse of movemen (was: searching for title of aria and to what it belongs)
All right, musical piece identified. Bach sometimes used musical pieces (sometimes rearranged) more often for different purposes. Did Bach use this movement ("Schlummert ein" from BWV 82) more often, e.g. purely instrumental? If so, where? |
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John Pike wrote (January 13, 2006):
[To Jim Groeneveld] Yes, there is a version for Soprano in the Anna Magdalena Notebook. |
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Jim Groenebeld wrote (January 13, 2006):
[To John Pike] Thanks John,
I'll see if I can find it (somewhere on the internet). Do you mean it is for a soprano voice or for an instrument? |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (January 13, 2006):
[To Jim Groeneveld] If you look at the page of Cantata BWV 82: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV82.htm you will be able to notice that this cantata has four versions by J.S. Bach:
Versions 1 & 4: Bass
Version 2: Soprano
Version 3: Alto
BWV 82 competes with BWV 51 on the title 'the most recorded Bach Cantata". According to the info I have been able to find, BWV 82 has 59 complete recordings while BWV 51 has 57.
AFAIK, J.S. Bach did not prepare an instrumental version of the aria "Schlummert ein" (Mvt. 3) from BWV 82, neither am I aware of any purely instrumental arrangement by others. |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (January 13, 2006):
[To Aryeh Oron] This is a history of revisions which one expects from Händel (e.g. Laudate Pueri). Bach, like us, must have love this music very much. |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (January 13, 2006):
< "Schlummert Ein" is from "Ich habe genug" (BWV 82), 3rd movement. >
And a simpler version in Anna Magdalena's notebook. |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (January 13, 2006):
[To Aryeh Oron] For this aria "Schlummert ein" I'm especially fond of the 1994 recording by Tragicomedia in a disc of excerpts from Anna Magdalena's notebook. It was a single CD for some years on Teldec, and I think it also got included in one of the Bach2000 cubes. John Potter sings it. They arranged the accompaniment for lute, viola da gamba, and organ. |
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Eric Bergerud wrote (January 13, 2006):
[To Aryeh Oron] I checked Archiv's holdings on in print cantatas and there hasn't been a lot of change. (Archiv is pretty good about keeping up with in print volumes of even pretty minor labels. I'd be surprised if many Bach cantatas are missing.) Leading the pack is BWV 82 with 40 versions; BWV 51 follows with 25 and BWV 56 with 20. Only the following cantatas that have more than ten versions in print: BWV 93, BWV 202, BWV 140, BWV 170, BWV 211, BWV 61, BWV 56, BWV 21, BWV 147, BWV 106, BWV 4 and BWV 131. Not a bad bunch really, although I've never heard the charm of the Coffee Cantata. On the other side of the coin, many cantatas that have three or fewer. Let's hope Suzuki and Gardiner and anyone else interested does complete an entire cycle. (Dare we hope for a reissue of Harnoncourt at mid-price? Where are Dutch drug stores when you need them?) |
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genug and genung |
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Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (December 16, 2006):
Tom Dent wrote:
< Rene Jacobs sings cantatas and arias of Buxtehude (Klagelied), J.Christoph Bach (Ach, dass ich Wassers genug hatte) and Telemann, accompanied by the 'Kuijken Consort' (viols / chamber organ) and 'Parnassus Ensemble' (late Baroque instrumentals). A relatively early production of the Belgian label Accent, still sounding extraordinary... hearing is believing. >
It has been forcefully impressed on me on another list (one far less acrimonious than this one and also of slow traffic) that the more correct reading for JSB himself in Cantata BWV 82 is "genung" and indeed I noticed thereafter than one of my recordings uses "genung".
Therefore since Johann Christoph born 1642 and thus a generation older, did he employ "genung" or "genug". I have a number of recordings of this cantata and don't need another one and so shall take a pass on Mr. Dent's recommendation.
The recordings of these family cantatas is one of the few valuable things I derived in recent times from this debating society. The 1725 Johannes-Passion (BWV 245) and recommendations between the recordings was another. |
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Tom Dent wrote (December 1, 2006):
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote:
< since Johann Christoph born 1642 and thus a generation older, did he employ "genung" or "genug". >
All sources I know of say the latter.
It may be a case of 'lunch' vs. 'luncheon', the longer form was a temporary aberration...
< I have a number of recordings of this cantata and don't need another one and so shall take a pass on Mr.
Dent's recommendation. >
Ah, but how can you tell what you don't need when you don't have it yet? Or to put it better: Are you sure there are no more dimensions to the music than the ones you already know?
Actually, I would recommend the disc for the Buxtehude 'Klage' alone. Maybe you have a lot of those too... |
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Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (December 16, 2006):
Tom Dent wrote:
< Ah, but how can you tell what you don't need when you don't have it yet? Or to put it better: Are you sure there are no more dimensions to the music than the ones you already know? >
No doubt there are special dimensions in any performance of worth. However at a certain point one realizes that one's fourth or fifth recording of most anything is enough unless one is doing a comparative survey. Having both Ledroit and Lesne (I forget whether Mena did it as well) and both of the Goebel recordings (Goebel holds that distinction of having recorded the J.Christoph Bach cantata with both a counter-tenor and much later with a female mezzo), to make a bad pun, ENOUGH isGENUG.
< Actually, I would recommend the disc for the Buxtehude 'Klage' alone. Maybe you have a lot of those too... >
I have none.
None at all. |
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BWV 82 |
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Shawn Charton wrote (February 16, 2007):
I found this group because of a discussion about chiastic structures that happened in April of 2006. Yet, in looking over those posts I find a glaring omission in BWV. 82.
Bach illustrated the chiasmus here in the same typical balance of movements but he also employs a superficial balance of false (perhaps modally motivated)key signatures with THREE flats at the center to reference the Trinity. AND... at the golden mean of the central movement Bach creates the numeric construct 3, 1, 2 - God at the center with Jesus sitting at the right... Through the use of a chiastic structure in BWV. 82 (and 82a) Bach creates the following statement of the lutheran (and Bach's personal) belief: Because Christ was born (oboe/flute) to be crucified (chiasmus) and rose to heaven (3,1,2) man can say, "Ich habe genug."
BWV. 82a (the high version for flute- notice the references to the nativity through "pastoral" instruments) exchanges the false key signatures for a single sharp... alla BWV 4.
This cantata was CLEARLY important to Bach. The middle movement in it's entirely was copied into Anna Magdalena's notebook.
This is, in my humble opinion, one of the most complete and obvious uses of chiastic balancing in Bach's repetoire yet I seem to be the only one who has noticed it. Thoughts? |
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Peter Smaill wrote (February 17, 2007):
[To Shawn Charton] Thank you indeed for this extension of the discussion on chiastic structure, here found in BWV82/82A of 1727, which follows on from a number of posts, most recently on BWV 5,"Wo soll ich fliehen hir".
You are absolutely right that the structure overall is chiastic:
Aria
recitative
Aria
Recitative
Aria
What is remarkable is that Dürr spots the internal chiastic structure of BWV82/3 as expressed by its motives A B and C, a form of rondeau but chiastic is a valid description:even if not perfectly symmetrical :
rit-A-rit-BAC-rit-A-rit
but he does not detect that the overall construction of the Cantata is chiastic; in fact, he goes so far as to "doubly" regret that there is not a closing chorale which (of course) would ruin the symmettry!
Of the central "slumber" aria he rightly says :
"Though representative of a widespread baroque type, it leaves all things typical far behind in its great richness of invention and fullness of expression. Its lullaby character is conveyed by the frequent pedal point figures in the continuo; by a melodic tendency to the Mixolydian or minor seventh,,,whose subdominant character evokes the impression of release; by the cradle rythymn, for which the syncopation is responsible; and by a repeated retardation of motion caused by fermatas. The expanded da capo form of the aria is exceptional".
The nominal key structure is given as E flat/G and so it is the diminished sevenths which, as Julian Mincham has pointed out in other instances, gives the melancholy affekt of a minor key even though this is not the case.
The observation of the overall chiastic structure is not only IMO quite possibly original (Whittaker and Robertson miss it too), but in fact this aperçu also identifies a blind spot in the analysis of Dürr as regards this great work. |
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Shawn Charton wrote (February 17, 2007):
[To Peter Smaill] I wrote a paper on this which was considered for publication in Notes but was eventually rejected in favor of another... I'd love to publish it else where. Suggestions? |
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Shawn Charton wrote (February 17, 2007):
[To Peter Smaill]If I recall, similar points also apply to "Ich will dem Kreuzstab gerne tragen" and "Der Friede sei mit dir" though I believe the latter is incomplete...
The 3, 1, 2 structure I found is also quite interesting: (starting at measure 68) you get a 3 bar pedal point surrounded on both sides by 6 bar phrases. After that, there is a 1 bar pedal followed by a 2 bar phrase. so it's really 6[3]6 [1] [2]. The entire work revolves around the number 18... as you can see, those numbers add up to 18. I believe there is a source for saying that 18 and its derivatives represent the trinity in numerology... though I'd have to look to find it. I KNOW there is grounding to say that Bach used 1,2,3, to represent the members of the trinity. As I said before... (IMHO) Bach has intentionally ordered the members of the trinity here to show Jesus sitting at the right hand of God the father with the Holy Spirit residing apart from them - presumably with mankind... |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (February 17, 2007):
Shawn Charton wrote:
< I found this group because of a discussion about chiastic structures that happened in April of 2006. Yet, in looking over those posts I find a glaring omission in BWV. 82.
Bach illustrated the chiasmus here in the same typical balance of movements but he also employs a superficial balance of false (perhaps modally motivated)key signatures with THREE flats at the center to reference the Trinity. >
Why not JMJ, just as an example from Christian iconography?
< AND... at the golden mean of the central movement Bach creates the numeric construct 3, 1, 2 >
I simply don't see anything like that. Can you demonstrate what you mean?
< - God at the center with Jesus sitting at the right... Through the use of a chiastic structure in BWV. 82 (and 82a) >
I don't see 82a in either Dürr or Grove? Is this an accepted designation?
I guess you are free to interpret chiastic structure any way you want, but I don't see that you have made any points to convince anyone who doesn't already see it your way. Just as an example, what in the structure indicates that Jesus is on the right. Why not the left?
< Bach creates the following statement of the lutheran (and Bach's personal) belief: >
For a broader opinion and analysis of this subject (Lutheranism and Bach's personal beliefs), see James Gaines, 'Evening in the Palace of Reason'.
< Because Christ was born (oboe/flute) to be crucified (chiasmus) >
(1) I don't see this dogma in BWV 82
(2) I don't see the necessity of connecting chiastic structure with crucifixion.
< and rose to heaven (3,1,2) man can say, "Ich habe genug." >
I have had enough.
< This is, in my humble opinion, one of the most complete and obvious uses of chiastic balancing in Bach's repetoire yet I seem to be the only one who has noticed it. Thoughts? >
I am always grateful to have symmetry pointed out and appreciated. I don't necessarily see an X every time, and I don't necessarily see a crucifixion every time I see an X. I agree there is plenty of Christian symbolism in Bach. I think that point is weakened rather than reinforced by stretching too much. After all, some people, with Freud would open a drawer and see a .... Not me. |
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Shawn Charton wrote (February 17, 2007):
[To Ed Myskowski] BWV 82a is the soprano/flute version of BWV 82.
I don't know that it has posted yet, but I wrote a post explaining how I got 3, 1, 2... it is based on phrase lengths versus pedal points before the recap of the middle movement.
Essentially, the last section before the recap is:
6 bar phrase, 3 bar pedal point, 6 bar phrase, 1 bar pedal point, 2 bar phrase. 6 [3] 6 [1] [2]...
This construct is the key to the whole thing. One could say that Jesus was born and cruficied... but the KEY to Christian faith it the resurrection. [3=Holy Spirit] dwells, presumably on earth with man, [1= God the father] at the center and [2=Jesus] having been raised from the dead is on the right.
Jesus was born, crucified and ascended so that man can say "Ich habe genug..." This exactly parallels the action of the biblical story of Simeon (from whence the text and its paraphrases comes), who represents the transition between the old covenant and the new. Upon seeing Jesus, Simeon transitions into the body of Christ and thus "Freut sich in seinen Tod." This all makes PERFECT sense.
While I understand that skeptics will always want more tangible proof, SURELY you can see the logic behind what I am saying. I am intentionally vague onall the particularly because as soon as I spell it all out someone will try to steal it and claim it as their own. This is, to the best of my knowledge, 100% original observation about BWV. 82. I can find NO source that acknowledges it as anything but a pretty and evocative work to which Bach was partial... I maintain that Bach's attachment to the work was altogether more theological. It is in essence Bach's creed, IMHO. Perhaps not his only creed - I think the b minor mass would certainly qualify as well, but -to me- the theological language reads loud and clear. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (February 17, 2007):
Shawn Charton wrote:
< BWV 82a is the soprano/flute version of BWV 82. >
First of all, thank you for the reasoned response.
< I don't know that it has posted yet, but I wrote a post explaining how I got 3, 1, 2... it is based on phrase lengths versus pedal points before the recap of the middle movement.
Essentially, the last section before the recap is:
6 bar phrase, 3 bar pedal point, 6 bar phrase, 1 bar pedal point, 2 bar phrase. 6 [3] 6 [1] [2]... >
Delayed posts, however they happen, interrupt the flow from time to time.
< This construct is the key to the whole thing. One could say that Jesus was born and cruficied... but the KEY to Christian faith it the resurrection. [3=Holy Spirit] dwells, presumably on earth with man, [1= God the father] at the center and [2=Jesus] having been raised from the dead is on the right.
Jesus was born, crucified and ascended so that man can say "Ich habe genug..." This exactly parallels the action of the biblical story of Simeon (from whence the text and its paraphrases comes), who represents the transition between the old covenant and the new. Upon seeing Jesus, Simeon transitions into the body of Christ and thus "Freut sich in seinen Tod." This all makes PERFECT sense. >
To me, men sometimes make good art from it the constructs of belief, sometimes not so good art. Bach made as good as any, ever. As to sense: I have five.
< While I understand that skeptics will always want more tangible proof, SURELY you can see the logic behind what I am saying. I am intentionally vague on all the particularly because as soon as I spell it all out someone will try to steal it and claim it as their own. >
Every religion is logical, after the acceptance of some initial premises. It is the stuff that has to be taken on faith that doesn't exactly mesh with my snese of logic. Oh, oh, that wasn't one of the five senses I just referred to. As to being secretive to prevent theft, that's my idea of logic.
< This is, to the best of my knowledge, 100% original observation about BWV 82. I can find NO source that acknowledges it as anything but a pretty and evocative work to which Bach was partial... I maintain that Bach's attachment to the work was altogether more theological. It is in essence Bach's creed, IMHO. Perhaps not his only creed - I think the b minor mass would certainly qualify as well, but -to me- the theological language reads loud and clear. >
Bach's creed likely evolved over his lifetime, like most of us. Some of us. One of us, for sure. I respect both your beliefs and Bach's, so I do not want to be challenging beliefs. But there is not necessarily a direct relation betweeen faith and logic. this is a major source of misunderstanding in discussions of theology, religion, faith, etc. |
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Harry W. Crosby wrote (February 17, 2007):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< After all, some people, with Freud would open a drawer and see a .... Not me. >
I was counting on you guys to fill in the blank with 'cunt', and recognize my deceptive plea of innocence.
Well, dumb old me. Never crossed my mind that what you open to get "there" could, technically be called "drawers," but I gotta say in self defense that I never heard 'em called "a drawer." Too much poetic license for us literalists. |
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Shawn Charton wrote (February 17, 2007):
<< While I understand that skeptics will always want more tangible proof, SURELY you can see the logic behind what I am saying. I am intentionally vague on all the particularly because as soon as I spell it all out someone will try to steal it and claim it as their own. >>
< As to being secretive to prevent theft, that's my idea of logic. >
<< This is, to the best of my knowledge, 100% original observation about BWV 82. I can find NO source that acknowledges it as anything but a pretty and evocative work to which Bach was partial... I maintain that Bach's attachment to the work was altogether more theological. It is in essence Bach's creed, IMHO. Perhaps not >>
Truth be told, I have submitted my paper to enough reputable papers and with solid enough dating that I am not TOO worried about it being credited to someone else. Otherwise I wouldn't have posted as much as I have. But, of course... put in that position, the process of PROVING that it originated with me is always a pain... |
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Thomas Braatz wrote (February 17, 2007):
The unusual change in perspective between mvt. 1 & 2 can possibly be attributed to the fact that Bach's text which is expressly made to suit a solo cantata appears to be the revision and expansion of an older libretto intended for a number of different vocal parts. This older libretto has been found preserved in a much later reprint from 1744.* It began with the dictum "Herr, nun lässest Du deinen Diener im Friede fahren" and concluded with a chorale, but otherwise contained only one recitative and the aria "Schlummert ein, ihr matten Augen".
* Peter Wollny, "Dokumente und Erläuterungen zum Wirken Johann Elias Bachs in Schweinfurt (1743-1755)" in "Die Briefentwürfe des Johann Elias Bach (1705-1755)," edited with comments by Evelin Odrich and Peter Wollny, Hildesheim etc. 2000 ("Leipziger Beiträge zur Bach-Forschung") 3, pp. 45-73, particularly pp. 54-57.
The initial composition of BWV 82 may possibly be somehow associated with the composition of the earliest version of the SMP if the year 1727 is assumed.
February 2, 1727: 1st version for solo bass with oboe in c minor The NBA KB indicates that there is evidence that Bach had first considered composing this cantata for mezzo-soprano, but then soon changed his mind in favor of bass.
February 2, 1731: 2nd version for solo soprano with flute in e minor
Around this time, and definitely before 1733/1734, Anna Magdalena Bach made two attempts to copy a transcribed/transposed and reduced version of BWV 80/2,3 into her Klavierbüchlein from 1725. In both attempts, AMB never completed writing out entirely these two mvts. from the cantata.
February 2, 1735: 3rd version for solo mezzo-soprano and oboe in c minor This may have been his original intention.
Johann Elias Bach, JSB's cousin who was for a while Bach's secretary and tutor for his children, mentions in a letter dated from January 1741 'a bass solo' which still had not been returned.
A new set of parts for the bass solo version had to be generated from the original score.
February 2, 1746 or 1747 1st version for solo bass with oboe in c minor
February 2, 1747 or 1748 1st version for solo bass with oboe in c minor
For these last two performances, the most likely soloist would have been Johann Christoph Altnickol, Bach's son-in-law.
Bach scholarship does not recognize any designation other than BWV 82 (There is no BWV 82a, BWV 82b, BWV 82c). |
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Shawn Charton wrote (February 17, 2007):
[To Thomas Braatz] Thanks Thomas. I didn't know most of that. I must say, I'm impressed with this site... You guys are kinda hard core. Do we have any idea if there is a facsimile of it available? I looked when I was writing my paper and couldn't find one. If not, where's the original??
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Bradley Lehman wrote (February 17, 2007):
< Bach scholarship does not recognize any designation other than BWV 80 (There is no BWV 80a, BWV 80b, BWV 80c). >
In the 1998 edition of BWV: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/bwv-review.htm
there is indeed a pair of separate listings in the main section for 80a and 80b, coming after 80 in this book.
But, for BWV 82, there aren't separate numbers/letfor the several versions (and instrumentations) in C minor and E minor.
One should also be wary of making any categorical statements such as "Bach scholarship does not recognize....", which is a universal negative. The broader body of Bach scholarship is not merely the purchase of the NBA, but represents the serious work of hundreds (thousands) of other scholars as well.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the NBA's volumes for this piece (BWV 82) were published as long as 13 years ago already (in Serie I, 28/1) :
http://www.baerenreiter.com/html/completeedi/nbainhalt.htm#1
http://www.baerenreiter.com/html/completeedi/gabach.htm#serie1
...and therefore they don't reflect Bach scholarship that has happened since 1994.
Nor is the 1998 BWV any "final" word, even though it is the official book of the numbering system. The preface to the 1998 BWV says they've already been working on another more extensive one that will eventually replace this 1998 "Kleine Ausgabe" of itself. |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (February 17, 2007):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
< February 2, 1731: 2nd version for solo soprano with flute in e minor
February 2, 1735: 3rd version for solo mezzo-soprano and oboe in c minor
This may have been his original intention. >
What is this distinction between "soprano" and "mezzo soprano"? The latter is a 19th century term used for female operatic voices; I've never seen it on a Bach score. When Bach uses a five-voice choir (SSATB) as in the Magnificat and the Mass in B Minor, there is a "Soprano 2" part. The range rarely goes above the staff but there is no lower extension.
In both the Magnificat and the Mass, Bach writes for five soloists, but modern performances almost always use the standard 19th century SATB quartet. In the Magnificat, the alto sings the "Et exultavit" although it is marked for soprano, and the trio, "Suscepit" is sung by the choir. These are modern "traditions", like calling the Ripieno choir in the SMP, the "Boys' Choir" -- or "Children's Choir" these days. |
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Thomas Braatz wrote (February 17, 2007):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
>>But, for BWV 82, there aren't separate numbers/letters for the several versions (and instrumentations) in C minor and E minor.<<
As I had correctly stated!
>>One should also be wary of making any categorical statements such as "Bach scholarship does not recognize....", which is a universal negative.<<
One should also be wary of any more recent Bach scholarship stating that BWV 82 also has separate versions: BWV 82a, BWV 82b, etc. The chances are very slim indeed that the new "Bach Verzeichnis", when it does appear in print, will be any different in regard to the categorization of BWV 82 than it was in its 1998 incarnation. The odds are definitely against this unrealistic notion which you bring up here. Also, you seem quite unaware of substantial, more recent Bach scholarship (for example, Hans-Joachim Schulze's "Die Bach-Kantaten", Leipzig, 2006) which also does not list the separate versions with numbers indicated above, although it discusses each version in detail. Schulze is part of the broader body of Bach scholarship and his work is more recent than most. Thus your 'criticism' of my findings fails to hit the mark.
Being unable to supply evidence to the contrary in order to prove your point and arguing from what does not exist seem to indicate that your defence of Bach scholarship has been misapplied in this instance. Your expected attack on the scholarship behind the NBA without being to cite more recent scholarship on this issue is just another typical attempt on your part to lead readers astray without being able to refer specifically to any hard evidence that would refute my statement. |
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Thomas Braatz wrote (February 17, 2007):
Shawn Charton wrote:
>>Do we have any idea if there is a facsimile of it available? I looked when I was writing my paper and couldn't find one. If not, where's the original??<<
As of 1994, no facsimile reprint had been available. The NBA includes facsimiles of:
1. 1st page of the autograph score, C minor version notated for Alto voice which Bach changed when the parts were copied out. It has the indication at the bottom clearly visible in Bach's hand:
"NB. Die Singstimme muß in den Bass transponiert werden" ("The vocal [Alto] part has to be transposed into the bass") = the existing alto part should be transposed so a bass voice can sing it
The score is located in the Staatsbibliothek Berlin, Preußischer Kulturbesitz under Signatur: Mus. ms. Bach P 114
2. 1st page of the 1st violin part (in C minor)
3. 1st Page of the 2nd violin part (in C minor)
These copied parts show all the marks of articulation which Bach personally added to them.
The NBA has printed out 3 versions of the score:
1. The original version according to the autograph score for Bass voice (originally for Alto)
Most of the original set of parts have been lost.
2. The version for Bass or Mezzo-Soprano (also in C minor) based on the new set of parts from the 1730s and 1740s. There are changes here from the original. Oboe or Oboe da caccia
3. The version for Soprano in E minor (a reconstruction using a flute)
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Thomas Braatz wrote (February 17, 2007):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
>>What is this distinction between "soprano" and "mezzo soprano"? The latter is a 19th century term used for female operatic voices; I've never seen it on a Bach score.<<
Bach probably did not use this designation/term very much, but it does actually exist on the original Soprano part (E minor) from circa 1731. Here is how it appears on this part copied by Johann Ludwig Krebs:
"Soprano" written by Krebs
"mezo" [sic!] added by JSB
Bach then proceeds to write in the initial array of clefs and key signatures for the transposition, then turns the rest over to Krebs.
Johann Gottfried Walther in his "Musicalisches Lexicon...", Leipzig, 1732, indicates both spellings: "Mezzo" and "Mezo"
His definition of "Mezzo-Soprano" is "high alto or low/deep descant, whose clef is on the 2nd line of the staff" |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (February 19, 2007):
[To Thomas Braatz] To all who wish to complain about BCML. The opportunity to discuss or simply read these details is unique to our group. It makes it worthwhile (or at least tolerable) to put up with other stuff. |
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Peter Smaill wrote (February 17, 2007):
A further thought on the chiasmic patterns in "Ich habe genung" (the musically rondeau form of BWV/3; and the structural symettry (Aria-Recit-Aria-Recit- Aria)). There is also remarkable poetic structure.
BWV 82/1 is that relative rarity,a stanza with an odd number of lines. As with BWV 63 and BWV 101, if we look to the central line a spruch or dictum appears to the reader.
BWV 82/1 (line 5 of 9) "Ich habe ihn erblickt" ("I have seen him")
The rhyme forms of BWV 82/2 and 82/ 3 are unusual:
82/2 ABBCDDCFFGGA (opening line repeating)
82/3 ABCCADDB
The last instance the BCW discussed of an opening line repeating as if a refrain was in the chiastic BWV 101, "Nimm von uns, Herr", where the expression is "Gedenk an Jesu bittern Tod!" , such repetiton also being rare in the texts. There the stanza is nine lines with the central text being "Die Zahlung und die Lösegeld" i.e., "Payment and Ransom".
In general the chiastic works are rich in allusions to the Passion, longing for death and salvation doctrines. Several of Bach's librettists seems to have used chiastic techniques and the device appears to have been IMO part of the poetic toolkit of the baroque era rather than specific to Bach's sacred music. |
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Continue on Part 4 |
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