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Cantata BWV 82
Ich habe genug
Discussions - Part 2 |
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Continue from Part 1 |
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Classical Releases (Bach: Cantatas 82, 83, 125, 200 - 11/27/2000) |
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Barry Murray wrote (November 27, 2000):
I thought some list members may be interested in the following.
From: "TipWorld" Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 5:30 AM
Subject: Classical Releases [BACH: CANTATAS, BWV 82, 83, 125, 200 - 11/27/2000]
by Tim Pfaff
BACH: CANTATAS, BWV 82, 83, 125, 200 [58]
(Archiv Produktion)
John Eliot Gardiner's Bach cantata cycle [58], which is appearing at the rate of a CD per month, is becoming a bit overwhelming. This latest set, of Bach's cantatas for the Feast of the Purification of Mary, is one of the more successful, finding Gardiner's English Baroque Soloists and Monteverdi Choir at their easy, assured best.
The point of interest is, of course, Cantata BWV 82, the solo-voice "Ich habe genug," one of the most beloved of all the cantatas. Bass Peter Harvey [58] sings as though he's aware he's up against the stiffest competition imaginable, giving the moving piece his best shot--and a good shot it is. But in the wake of Matthias Goerne's towering recent recording for Decca [55], and a large slate of major recordings from the past, it doesn't overtake the competition. The companion cantatas are splendidly done, but in the end, this CD is for Bach lovers who want to have all of the composer's cantatas for Mary's feast. You know who you are. |
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Dutch Translation of BWV 82 |
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Dick Wursten wrote (November 11, 2001):
L.S. Bach-cantate lovers, esp. the dutch-speaking among them.
I contributed another translation into Dutch, this tim of BWV 82 (Ich habe genug). I made this translation on the occasion of a performance in a chapel of the Cathedral of Antwerp (Onze Lieve Vrouwe Kerk). This performance took place late in the evening, in an intimite oecumenical setting (with only 25 people present). No one left the cathedral unmoved.
By the way: 2-2-2002 the cantate will be performed in the proper setting of a complete Lutheran mass in the lutheran church of Antwerp.
The page : http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/BWV82-Dut1.htm
There are also links to this page from the following pages:
Cantata BWV 82: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV82.htm
Index to Text & Tranlations: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/index.htm
It is a wonderful bass-aria cantate for The Feast of the purification of Mary, or better: the presentation of Jesus in the temple, 2 february, focussed on the meeting with the (old?) prophet Simeon, who takes the child in his arms and sings his canticum (Nunc dimittis servum tuum Domine secundum verbum tuum in pace etc..), a text with a very rich 'Wirkungsgeschichte', of which this cantate is a remarkable exponent (is that correct English?)..
I proposed to listen to it around 2 Feb 2002, but Aryeh informed me that Cantata BWV 82 already has been discussed in the Bach Cantatas Mailing List. following pages:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV82-D.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV82-D2.htm |
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BWV 82 - Ich habe genug - Anthony Bernard |
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Charles Francis wrote (December 14, 2001):
[3] A cable radio channel I subscribe to (Barock & Renaissance Music) is currently playing BWV 82 - Ich habe genug in the performance conducted by Anthony Bernard, EMI, with soloists Hans Hotter. I'm impressed with this version, but the only reference I could find to it in the Bach Cantatas archive was a 1950 performance on vinyl: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV82-Rec1.htm - C3
This recording I'm listening to sounds like it is on CD, not vinyl, so my question is has this historic perfomance been re-released on CD by EMI? |
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Riccardo Nughes wrote (December 14, 2001):
[To Charles Francis] Yes, it was!
[3] J.S. BACH
Cantata/Kantate/Cantate No.82 'Ich habe genug'
BRAHMS Vier ernste Gesänge
10 Lieder
Hans Hotter
Philharmonia Orchestra
Anthony Bernard
Références
CDH 763198 2
Just go to www.emiclassics.com and search in the catalogue. |
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Charles Francis wrote (December 16, 2001):
[To Riccardo Nughes] I discovered I already have this performance!! Its part of the following 20 CD set:
Bach, J.S. "Meisterwerke in historischen Einspielungen: Das Wohltemperierte Klavier, Matthäuspassion, Goldberg-Variationen, Orchesterwerke & Konzerte, Kammermusik, Magnificat, Kunst der Fuge, Orgelwerke, Brandenburgische Konzerte, Klavierwerke"
Mit Edwin Fischer, Dinu Lipatti, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, Vladimir Horowitz/Klavier, Albert Schweitzer/Orgel, Wanda Landowska/Cembalo, Sebastian Caratelli/Flöte, Pablo Casals/Cello, Andrés Segovia/Gitarre, Yehudi Menuhin, Adolf Busch, Frances Magnes/Violine, Marta Schilling, Gertrude Pitzinger, Heinz Marten, Gerhard Gröschel, Gérard Souzay, Hans Hotter, Tiana Lemnitz, Friedel Beckmann, Karl Erb, Gerhard Hüsch, Siegfried Schulze, Orchestre De Radio Beromünster/Hermann Scherchen, Philharmonia Orchestra/Anthony Bernard, Thomanerchor Leipzig, Gewandhausorchester Leipzig/Günther Ramin, Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, Ensemble De Solistes/Fritz Reiner, Wiener Philharmoniker/Hans Knappertsbusch, Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra/Malcolm Sargent, Orchestre Symphonique de Paris/George Enescu, Kammerorchester Adolf Busch, Kammerorchester Edwin Fischer. Aufnahmen
1927-1950. History. AAD. 20 CDs 39.95 DEM (? 20.43) . Nr. 49898
which can be purchased from http://www.zweitausendeins.de/indexengl.htm for 20 Euros.
Everyone should own this set given its incredible value, the quality of the performances (e.g. Scherchen's Art of Fugue, Hotter's BWV 82) and its historic value (Schweitzer, Fischer etc).
Regarding BWV 82, Simon Crouch writes: http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/bachjs/cantatas/082.html
"There are many fine recordings of this wonderful piece but do try to hear Hans Hotter with the Philharmonia Orchestra (conducted by Anthony Bernard). Not a trace of HIP but perhaps a window on a lost time of beauty and innocence."
Praise indeed!
He also noted December 21, 1999, this is his pick for the best Bach recording of the century. |
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Dyfan Lewis wrote (December 17, 2001):
[To Riccardo Nughes] I have a 20 CD set of historical recordings of Bach from 1929 to 1952 called Solo Dei Gloria and I think from ZVEITAUSENDEINS in germany for a ridiculously low price. Excellent generally and Hans Hotter's BWV 82 is on there. Breathtakingly beautiful. |
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Peter Tanzer wrote (December 18, 2001):
[To Dyfan Lewis] Is it possible to purchase theis 20 cd set at that "ridiculously low" price? Could you give me information on where to obtain it? |
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Riccardo Nughes wrote (December 18, 2001):
[To Peter Tanzer] http://www.zweitausendeins.de/indexengl.htm |
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Philip Peters wrote (December 18, 2001):
[To Dyfan Lewis] I have it too. It's full of gems like Edwin Fischer's WTC and Mauersberger's SMP. And when one lives in Europe shipping costs are relatively negligible. I have often bought very cheap at 2001 and their service is impeccable. |
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Tragicomedia AMB / Schulmmert ein |
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Pablo Fagoaga wrote (Nove9, 2002):
[To Pete Blue] Surprisingly, no one proposed BWV 82's second Aria, "Schlummert ein, ihr matten Augen" !!!!
The paradox is that it is SO intense, that it is more likely a sleepwalker's rejoicing than slumbering.
That special peace!!!. Damn it, what a composer!!.
The Richter/Fischer-Dieskau recording has no serious rival. |
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Continuo in BWV 82 |
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Richard Mix wrote (August 22, 2003):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< BTW, the score (BGA edition) for this movement is unusual, in that an organ part (stave) is written out below the continuo part (stave), despite this organ part, as written, being almost identical to the continuo part - only a few notes here and there, on the organ stave, are written an octave above the continuo part. I doubt that the finished piece would sound different in any way for these few octave-higher notes in the organ's bass line, shown on the stave; this is not an obligato or concertante organ part, so why did Bach bother writing the two separate staves for the continuo? OTOH, the figured bass numerals written below the organ part are unusually detailed. In many cantata scores, the figured bass numerals are very sparse, or non-existent. >
I was looking at this just yesterday. The answer, I would guess, is that Bach didnt write two separate staves, rather he [had] copied two parts, one for the organ and one for the cellist or violeer (in spoken English viol-ist is unambiguous, but I do prefer 'gambist' in writting), and that the BGA included both in the score. From my point of view, as I contemplate combining a modern 440 organ with period instruments, avoiding the low C in the former is very convenient! Bach's chorton was even higher, of course, so it would be easy for a meanton instrument to play in d minor. btw, I assume the organ has the higher note in the recit where there is a divisi. |
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Some longer notes in recitative of BWV 82... |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (September 22, 2003):
Neil Halliday wrote:
< Uri Golomb wrote: "...and short accompaniment was not an inflexible rule for everything, but an option for recitatives..."
Would that this were true! (with emphasis on the word option).
Can anyone point to a period instrument performance of a Bach cantata secco recitative in which the bass note is played as notated? >
To check this out I pulled out five of the period-instrument recordings I have of one of my favorite cantatas, BWV 82 "Ich habe genug". (Also to hear Kirkby's BWV 202 with Parrott, on the same disc...) I listened to the first recitative.
Of these five, I hear each continuo team playing different note lengths from one another, and varying their lengths as they go along, according to the needs of the moment. No automatons here. As I suggested here recently, the "whole note" in the notation means "do something intelligent and tasteful." :)
Of these five, the shortest continuo notes overall were from Leusink (Ramselaar), Herreweghe (Kooy), and Brüggen (van Egmond). In the middle, i.e. with many notes that were much longer including a few at "full value", Parrott (David Thomas). And the most sustained of all, with even more "full value" notes (but still also some breathing silence here and there, as appopriate), Kuijken (Mertens).
The Parrott disc is Hyperion 66036; the Kuijken is Accent 9395.
Personally, I feel these examples all sound good: the players matching their interpretation to the delivery of the singer, and that's what counts. It also has some things to do with the singers' interpretation in the other movements of the cantata: these same two singers (Thomas and Mertens) going for a more legato and gentle approach overall, while the first three singers are more declamatory. All these performances bring out different aspects of the piece, and I'm glad to have all five.
It feels a little strange to be listing the conductors' names above, because they probably didn't do any actual conducting in the recitatives but just left it to the guys in the band...the usual way.
It's not necessary for a conductor to micro-manage these things! But anyway. (And in Parrott's case, he's the organist himself.) I can tell you the continuo players' names if you need to know.
Hope this helps, |
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New member - Introducing myself
Hans Hotter's "Ich habe genug" in MP3 |
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Claude Duvet wrote (April 4, 2004):
Let me introduce myself first before I post a question. My name is Claude Duvet, I'm 19 years old and I don't know much about music. I just like it (or not). I became acquainted with Bach's work through my grandfather not long ago. I hope you will forgive me for my ignorance. My question is the following: in Bach's Cantata "Ich habe genug", which baritone do you think performs it better, Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau or Hans Hotter? And why? Because I'm planning to buy it. Are there any other recordings you could recommend? Thanks in advance, |
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Nagamiya Tutomu wrote (April 4, 2004):
[To Claud Duvet] Please visit my site, and you will find Hans Hotter's "Ich habe genug" in MP3 format. Although my site is almost in Japanese, you will easily find the relevant page. BTW, I like Hotter's than Fischer-Dieskau's, because Fischer-Dieskau's is felt to be somewhat too sophisticated. |
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Ludwig wrote (April 4, 2004):
[To Claud Duvet] Which is better is a matter of personal taste. It is what you like that counts so if you think it is good then it is for you but maybe not for another person.
If you have the resources to do so I would suggest that you buy all performances and then listen carefully to them with the score. Then you can judge more objectively amd blindly. i would suggest that you not even look at the recordings and give them to someone to listen with you blindfolded and have them put the recordings into your player without telling you which well has which disc. The listen and listen and always have someone load the wells without telling you which well has which performance.
Art you must rememeber art is a subjective thing and what appeals to you may not to another and that does not mean that what does not appeal to you is terrible but that everyone has different tastes.
Music would be very boring if we all had the same tastes. After all we only have 12 basic tones to work with in western music and these in other terms are divided into smaller scales and variations thereof. In the final analysis it does not really matter. After more than 2 thousand years; most of the music that can be written and played has been written and played and all that is left are the variants of what has been written and the rhythmic variations there of to give the "new" music a sound of newness. There are only 479,001,600 ways to write and play the 12 tone scale so that no note occurs more than once. To add intrest for newer music; we place these notes in higher of lower frequencies , repeat them and add various rhythmic combinations and in traditionally harmonized music we can only use 9 possible combinations of notes. When we use the entire gamut of frequencies---we end up with a possibility of 9.332622e+155 combinations of notes that can be strung together without ever repeating but then for variations we add to this repeated notes and other rhythmic combinations.
However, truly great performances cross the boundaries of most tastes and you can know a good performance say when a rock and roll acid head likes an opera performace when normally this person hates opera amd classcial music. I do not like what is commonly referred to, in the United States, as country music but I have heard such music done exceptionally well to the extent that I would buy the recording and listen to it which I normally would not.
Things that you should consider are:
How is the score performed?
IS the beat (time) consistent throughout or are their great slow downs or speed ups that are not called for.
How is the intonation of the wind instruments.
Are the instrumentalist and singers on key and do not waver into the microtonal scales.
With Baroque music---do the musicians perform the score as if it were a chopin or mozart piece or do they take the pains to perform with the ornamentations and restricted liberties that baroque muallows.
In classical period all the above apply except ornaments are eliminated unless written into the score.
Do the intrumentalists and singers come take their cues when they are suppose to.
And other factors which you can learn if you will take up the study of an instrument with either a private teacher or at some school.
good listening! |
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Jeremy Martin wrote (April 5, 2004):
[To Claud Duvet] BWV 82 "Ich Habe Genug" One of my favorite Cantatas. I have the recording of D. Fischer-Dieskau, Bach-Ensemble -- Helmuth Rilling.
I listened to the first movement done by Hans Hotter. Comparing first movements of the two I would say.
1.) Clarity of sound, Clarity between instruments and execution of note values
The Fischer-Dieskau version is very Clear and the execution concerning note values are near perfect, this is even true concerning the Oboe solos. I found in the Hans Hotter version that the Oboe seemed rushed and the execution of note values were a bit off. So I would give clarity and better execution of note values to the Fischer-Dieskau recording.
2.) Emotional expression.
Again I would give this to the Fischer-Dieskau version. Both Fischer-Dieskau and the Oboe bring out the max in emotional expression.
3.) A Sense of Reality.
Another point I would like to bring up and give to the Hans Hotter version is, A lack of perfection results in a greater sense of reality. The lack of perfection brings out a greater sense of reality in that man is mortal and the music of Bach is about mortal man crying out to his Immortal God, mortal man longing for the Immortal. Thus, when I hear a version less perfect I am reminded that we are mere mortals and the reality of this sets in which results in a greater sense of reality and that can cause one to understand Bach all the more. Mortality crying out to Immortality. Bach's music is summed up in these two verses Romans 8:22&23. "For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselfs groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body." And as Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 "And thus we shall always be with the Lord"!
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Althroughout Bach we find the mortal Johann Sebastian Bach longing to be with God and if the piece as Nagamiya said is, "somewhat too sophisticated." It takes away from the reality that we are mortal imperfect beings that long for our Perfect Immortal Maker and God. I believe God's grace shines all the more and that we should be comforted when we are less then perfect in music. For you are man.
I recommend you get both recording. Both recording hold things only they alone could posess.
He is Faithful, |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (April 5, 2004):
In welcoming Claude, "ludwig" recommended:
< (...) Music would be very boring if we all had the same tastes. After all we only have 12 basic tones to work with in western music and these in other terms are divided into smaller scales and variations thereof. >
...which is patently untrue if we use the unequal temperaments that Bach and his contemporaries used: there are many more than 12 distinct notes available within an octave. For example, G-sharp and A-flat are quite different from one another in pitch: G-sharp is lower in all the temperaments that are based on meantone tempering. That's clear, both on the surviving organs and the woodwind instruments. Why close off this area of intonational nuance just because some modern people don't understand it, or are uncomfortable with it?
A good listening example: Handel's solo sonatas for recorder and flute and oboe, played by Frans Brueggen on instruments from c1700 and c1740, and Bruce Haynes on an oboe from c1750: SEON/Sony 60100.
< Things that you should consider are:
IS the beat (time) consistent throughout or are their great slow downs or speed ups that are not called for. >
...or are there the types of tempo and phrasing fluctuations that are called for as normal musicianship, in 17th and 18th century treatises? Especially the type where the soloist is supposed to play ahead of or behind the beat, freely, while the accompanying instruments keep it basically steady: melodic rubato.
< With Baroque music---do the musicians perform the score as if it were a chopin or mozart piece or do they take the pains to perform with the ornamentations and restricted liberties that baroque music allows. >
...or are those "restricted liberties" a feature of mid-20th-century taste (especially in the goal of RESTRICTING musicians' options) rather than 17th/18th?
< In classical period all the above apply except ornaments are eliminated unless written into the score. >
Bologna. Pianists shouldn't improvise ornamentation and passage-work and continuo in the Mozart piano concertos, even in the places where he left it as only a sketch?! Why not?
< And other factors which you can learn if you will take up the study of an instrument with either a private teacher or at some school. >
Indeed; many of which show this field of performance practice to be far less restrictive and circumscribed than "ludwig" asserts. The advice to attend a good music school is good advice.
Anyway: welcome, Claude! |
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Bob Henderson wrote (April 5, 2004):
Chosing between the two is an unfare question. They are different but both equally desirable. Also investigate the Hunt Lieberson. On the short list. |
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Claude Duvet wrote (April 5, 2004):
[To Nagamiya Tutomu] Thanks a lot for sharing your music! It was truly great. I think I'll try to get both versions to begin with, and then I'll see. Thanks to all the other members too for your help! And as to entering a music school, well, I'll think it over ... |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (April 5, 2004):
[To Claude Duvet] Cantata BWV 82 was discussed in the BCML about four years ago. You can read the discussions at the following page of the BCW: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV82-D.htm
This morning I got a phone call from a friend, who asked me about the news in the area of recorded Bach Cantatas. I recommended Suzuki Vol. 23. Than I asked him if he had ever heard Cantata 'Ich habe Genug' with Hans Hotter. He told me that he did not, but he knew Hotter from his Wagner recordings. He asked me to play it for him and he listened to the recording through the phone. When the first movement was over, I picked up the phone and asked if he wanted me to continue playing the CD, and he told me 'No, please stop, I am crying'. I told him that so did I. This is one of the most moving renditions of any Bach Cantata. DFD almost always brings Bach to new picks. But Hotter is unrivalled emotionally (BTW, DFD recorded BWV 82 three times, of which I find his recording with Richter as the most appealing). |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (April 5, 2004):
[To Claude Duvet] If I could keep only four favorite recordings of "Ich habe genug", it would be the Lorraine Hunt Lieberson (Smith) disc Bob mentioned, along with David Thomas (Parrott), Klaus Mertens (Kuijken), and Max van Egmond (Brüggen). |
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Ehud Shiloni wrote (April 5, 2004):
Jeremy Martin wrote:
<snip> Another point I would like to bring up and give to the Hans Hotter version [3] is, A lack of perfection results in a greater sense of reality. The lack of perfection brings out a greater sense of reality in that man is mortal and the music of Bach is about mortal man crying out to his Immortal God, mortal man longing for the Immortal. Thus, when I hear a version less perfect I am reminded that we are mere mortals and the reality of this sets in which results in a greater sense of reality and that can cause one to understand Bach all the more. Mortality crying out to Immortality. >
Thank you so much for these wonderful words. Such [rare] posts make it worthwhile to endure many hundreds of bickering posts. Thanks again for straightforward humanity - a breath of fresh air on the Bach Cantatas List. |
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John Pike wrote (April 5, 2004):
[To Ehud Shiloni] Yes. An excellent contribution. |
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Ehud Shiloni wrote (Apr5, 2004):
[To Bradley Lehman] I was mildly disappointed with the Hunt Lieberson version. She has a pleasant enough voice, but whenever she goes out of her natural range she sounds strained and even slightly wobbly, kicking in some unpleasant vibrato.
The liner notes describe her as a cross artist, combining singing with some acting. Reading that gave me the idea to call for a new version of BWV82, more appropriate of our times, and here are my nominations for
the solo parts:
Tom Waits - Baritone
Michael Brecker - Soprano Sax
Anyone wishing to join me on my petition? |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (April 5, 2004):
[To Ehud Shiloni] Somebody here (was it Uri?) mentioned seeing the Peter Sellars staged production of this, as described in the CD's booklet: "For BWV 82, Lieberson appeared on stage in a hospital gown with medical tubes emerging from her exhausted body to sing the words of Simeon's from Luke II as a monologue about readiness to die."
Certainly it would be interesting to hear Tom Waits in this, but would it be singing? :) Recently I attended a church service where the leaders made an extended use of the Gavin Bryars piece "Jesus' Blood Never Failed Me Yet" during communion...those tape loops of Tom Waits. Distinctive voice.
Somewhere, maybe on another list a long time ago, I mentioned a similar crossover wish: to hear a rendition of Schubert's "Winterreise" by Sting. |
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Ehud Shiloni wrote (April 6, 2004):
Brad Lehman wrote:
<snip> Certainly it would be interesting to hear Tom Waits in this, but would it be singing? :) >
Whatever. The other day I heard Waits doing "Buddy, can you spare a dime" - a modern day solo "cantata" - and my heart just melted away. I'd give it a try any day - if only Waits agrees to rise to the challenge...:)
< Somewhere, maybe on another list a long time ago, I mentioned a similar crossover wish: to hear a rendition of Schubert's "Winterreise" by Sting. >
Splendid idea - count me in! |
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Uri Golomb wrote (April 6, 2004):
< Somebody here (was it Uri?) mentioned seeing the Peter Sellars staged production of this, >
Yes, that probably was me. Aryeh has posted my review of that staged production
on his website; see: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/Sellars[Golomb].htm |
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Claude Duvet wrote (April 6, 2004):
[To Bradley Lehman] I'm NOT a Sting fan but by all means I'd also like to hear him sing Winterreise! I think his way of singing would render this cycle great service.
Thanks for all the different versions you suggest. I hope I won't go bankrupt! I already got Hotter's [3] and one from Fischer-Dieskau. |
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Jason Marmaras wrote (April 6, 2004):
[To John Pike] Indeed, a very moving perspective. In any case, emotion may very well ruin too-perfect perfection... :) |
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Pablo Fagoaga wrote (April 6, 2004):
Music's Character (was: Hans Hotter's "Ich habe genug" in MP3)
[To Bradley Lehman] By the time the performance was staged, I read about it somewhere, and posted my impression about it, which I considered an original idea. Certainly, back then there was little echo, but I guess it would be interesting if some member of the list who happened to attend those performances, if there is one at all, would like to share his/her feeelings about it. To me, Ich habe genug is probably one of the most (if not "the" most) moving Cantatas. It is quotable the influence that Bach's religious believes had in some of his music. I bring back this many times discussed issue because I see here some point against the usual conclusion, that is that actually the musician and the religious man had separated paths. Not this time. Clearly, Bach's faith determined the CHARACTER of this music. It is profound, melancholic, BUT extremely peaceful at the same time. Obviously, if the subject is the proximity of death, you could expect many "musical images", ranging from Mahler's convulsive, tragic sound, to Bruckner's tranquility. Bach's are absolutely hopeful and serene. And this is so due to his spiritual life. As an exercise, I guess it would be interesting to point out in this forum works that could have been radically different being Bach less or not religious at all.
Any calls?
Jason Marmaras wrote (April 6, 2004):
In any case, emotion may very well ruin too-perfect perfection...
...to a pleasing effect...
(a bit of a "HIPpy idea" if you ask me) |
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A new member |
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Nanraella (Kilby Baisner) wrote (May 21, 2004):
Well, I suppose this should have come first, but as I've said, I'm not the brightest bulb around, and I'm pretty absent-minded.
My love for music and for Bach in particular has been nurtured all my life, my dad having been a very good classical singer, and, just to put it out there, Robert Shaw asked for him to tour with him some years back, and called him the MGM Lion.
In the past couple years, I've been trying to get deeper into Bach and Baroque. Just this Christmas, I sang "Quia Respexit" in his Magnificat for our church's concert. Since then, my goals have been much fixed around singing, and Bach especially.
Only a month or so ago, I stumbled across Ian Bostridge (one of the performers listed and discussed on the site -- which is why I wanted to join!), and have fallen in love with his skill and expression. I recently checked out his Bach cantatas and arias album and right now am listening to "Ich habe genug" (BWV 82), and in fact! Oh, joy! my favorite part -- "Hier muss ich das Elend bauen, aber dort! dort werd ich schauen sussen Friede, stille Ruh." The way he sings "aber dort!" just takes my breath away, and makes me impulsively want to weep. I've seen a lot of discussion about Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau singing "Ich habe genug", and am curious if the cantata has been
converted to tenor on Bostridge's cd, or if it's for tenor in the first place. Further, has anyone heard Bostridge sing this? It absolutely blows me away. I've not heard someone sing any Bach as expressively and convictedly as he does it. But I guess I should listen to the Fischer-Dieskau recording, too.
I am a committed Calvinist Presbyterian Christian, and have been all my life. However, I wish that somehow we could combine the Presbyterian theology, the Baptist fervor, the Anglican music, and the Lutheran liturgy into one church. I guess what I want is heaven! (Exactly what Bostridge is singing right now, incidentally -- "Ich freue mich auf meinen Tod".) My primary goal in life is to glorify and enjoy God, and to do so with my mind and my music, which is the reason I've joined this group, to have good, deep discussions about Bach's God-glorifying music.
[snip] |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (May 21, 2004):
[To Nanraella] [snip]
And incidentally, if you'd like to hear a good recording of "Ich habe genug" (cantata BWV 82) sung by a woman, check out Lorraine Hunt Lieberson's: Nonesuch 79692. |
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Nanraella wrote (May 21, 2004):
[To Braley Lehman] [snip]
I would love to hear Hunt-Lieberson do it, so I can see how it sounds with a female voice (I want it sung at my funeral, and if no one else can get around to doing it, I could record it :)), and her's is a good one if any. I discovered her just the other week when I checked out a recording of Idomeneo with Bostridge. She did a brilliant Idamante. |
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Neil Halliday wrote (May 21, 2004):
Nanraella wrote:
"I've seen a lot of discussion about Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau singing "Ich habe genug", and am curious if the cantata has been converted to tenor on Bostridge's cd, or if it's for tenor in the first place. Further, has anyone heard Bostridge sing this? It absolutely blows me away. I've not heard someone sing any Bach as expressively and convictedly as he does it. But I guess I should listen to the Fischer-Dieskau recording, too."
BWV 82 is for bass, but Bostridge certainly is a fine singer (and Bach sometimes wrote "parodies" of his arias, for different vocalists).
Perhaps my personal favourites on this CD are "Der Ewigkeit saphirnes Haus" from BWV 198, and "Des Vaters Stimme liess sich horen" from BWV 7.
I believe DFD's finest recording of BWV 82 is the one with R(1968). Rilling made a later recording of it with DFD, but the latter was perhaps passed his best by then. |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (May 21, 2004):
BWV 82 transpositions
< BWV 82 is for bass, but Bostridge certainly is a fine singer (and Bach sometimes wrote "parodies" of his arias, for different vocalists). >
Versions of BWV 82 by Bach exist in two different keys (C minor and E minor) from different years.
Furthermore, two of the movements are additionally in Anna Magdalena's second notebook. A gorgeous rendition of those two movements is available as the last two tracks of the 1994 Teldec CD 91183 (selections from that notebook: basically, a compilation of favorites of the Bach household), sung by tenor John Potter accompanied by Tragicomedia. |
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Nanraella wrote (May 21, 2004):
[To Neil Halliday] Thanks for the information about the cantata -- and I thought it was so original in the tenor voice! Well, I certainly must listen to it in baritone/bass. Can you give me a clue where to find the DFD recording with Richter, other than my library?
Yes, those two arias Bostridge sings on his cd are beautiful -- like all the rest. But for me, besides the breath taking presentation of BWV 82, I love his "Gott ist mein Freund". Turn THAT on when you're feeling depressed!
Thanks again. |
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BWV 82 - Ich habe genug - Anthony Bernard |
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Peter Hoogenboom wrote (September 23, 2004):
I have fallen 3 years behind in the list. I joined in the summer of 2001, and, somhow, couldn't keep up after September 11th.
I'm quite interested in this 20-CD set but don't see it on the website of Zweitausenteins. Does anyone know if it is still available anywhere?
Thanks.
On Tuesday, December 18, 2001 Dyfan Lewis wrote:
< I quote Charles's message earlier today or yesterday which is much more well-written than mine:
Its part of the following 20 CD set:
Bach, J.S. "Meisterwerke in historischen Einspielungen:
Das Wohltemperierte Klavier, Matthauspassion, Goldberg-Variationen, Orchesterwerke & Konzerte, Kammermusik, Magnificat, Kunst der Fuge, Orgelwerke, Brandenburgische Konzerte, Klavierwerke" Mit Edwin Fischer, Dinu Lipatti, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, Vladimir Horowitz/Klavier, Albert Schweitzer/Orgel, Wanda Landowska/Cembalo, Sebastian Caratelli/Flote, Pablo Casals/Cello, Andres Segovia/Gitarre, Yehudi Menuhin, Adolf Busch, Frances Magnes/Violine, Marta Schilling, Gertrude Pitzinger, Heinz Marten, Gerhard Groschel, Gerard Souzay, Hans Hotter, Tiana Lemnitz, Friedel Beckmann, Karl Erb, Gerhard Husch, Siegfried Schulze, Orchestre De Radio Beromunster/Hermann Scherchen, Philharmonia Orchestra/Anthony Bernard, Thomanerchor Leipzig, Gewandhausorchester Leipzig/Gunther Ramin, Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, Ensemble De Solistes/Fritz Reiner, Wiener Philharmoniker/Hans Knappertsbusch, Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra/Malcolm Sargent, Orchestre Symphonique De Paris/George Enescu, Kammerorchester Adolf Busch, Kammerorchester Edwin Fischer. Aufnahmen 1927-1950. History. AAD. 20 CDs
39.95 DEM (? 20.43) . Nr. 49898
which can be purchased from: http://www.zweitausendeins.de/indexengl.htm
for 20 Euros.
Everyone should own this set given its incredible value, the quality of the performances (e.g. Scherchen's Art of Fugue, Hotter's BWV 82 [3]) and its historic value (Schweitzer, Fischer etc).
Regarding BWV 82, Simon Crouch writes: http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/bachjs/cantatas/082.html
"There are many fine recordings of this wonderful piece but do try to hear Hans Hotter with the Philharmonia Orchestra (conducted by Anthony Bernard) [3]. Not a trace of HIP but perhaps a window on a lost time of beauty and innocence."
Praise indeed!
He also noted December 21, 1999, this is his pick for the best Bach recording of the century. |
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Riccardo Nughes wrote (September 23, 2004):
< I'm quite interested in this 20-cd set but don't see it on the website of Zweitausenteins. Does anyone know if it is still available anywhere? >
Try here if still available -> http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/2970271/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist |
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New article added - Bach Notes |
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Aryeh Oron wrote (October 2, 2004)
Sean Burton, Artistic Director of Boston Orpheus Ensemble, was very kind to contribute an article to the Articles Section of the BCW. Essentially, it is program notes to a series of concerts she is presenting in the greater Boston area next week. After the introduction, there is a lengthy discussion of Bach's life followed by notes about Jauchzet Gott in Allen Landen, BWV 51 and Ich habe genung, BWV 82.
I hope you'll find its content to be useful.
You can find the article at the page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/Bach-Notes[Burton].htm
There is a link to this page from: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/index.htm |
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Continue on Part 3 |
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