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Cantata BWV 207
Vereinigte Zwietracht der wechselnden Saiten
Cantata BWV 207a
Auf, schmetternde Töne der muntern Trompeten
Discussions - Part 2 |
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Continue on Part 1 |
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Discussions in the Week of February 17, 2008 (2nd round) |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (February 15, 2008):
Introduction to BWV 207 -- Versingte Zwietracht der wechselnden Saiten
Introduction to Cantata BWV 207 (and following BWV 207a)
Link to BWV 207 page: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV207.htm
Link to BWV 207 past discussions: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV207-D.htm
Versingte Zwietracht der wechselnden Saiten -- United Discord of Changing Strings
(Dürrs translation, p. 856)
Highly regarded Leipzig University teacher Dr. Gottlieb Kortte was honored by the dedicated performance of this cantata as he attained a teaching chair on or about December 2, 1726. The poet is unknown, but musica per drama is the general form of this work. Written during Bachs Leipzig period cantatas of this nature were prepared with a simple plot suitable to the occasion using characters from mythology, shepherds or allegorical characters (Grove, 1995 printing, Vol. 1, p. 808). Others of a like nature are: BVW 213, BWV 206, BWV 214, BWV 207a, and BWV 215.
In this case the characters are: Diligence, Honour, Fortune and Gratitude, with the first two considerably personified. An interesting aspect in this selection is that the human paths of age progression and character growth development in the teacher ultimately reflect back as culminating in noble repose for the exertion of all the work diligence requires. The students who are recipients of these labors represent the future and are presented as a likeness to a tree that grows from good roots. Thus this leading educator is honored for his attention to duty.
The celebratory Brandenburg concertos, produced as an offering by Bach for the royalty are the basis for the opening chorus. The third movement of Concerto I (BWV 1046) is applied. Generally, the structure of Bachs musical compositions is so complete and rational that adaptation of material for more than one purpose is not uncommon, but beyond this fact, a listener can also find melodies and other harmonic implications that still can be interpreted and/or enjoyed in reflecting upon human experience today. Bach and his works have a timeless quality in both their objective and subjective elements.
Layout of the cantata:
Mvt. 1. Opening chorus -- SATB instrumentation: timpani, flutes, oboe damore, strings
The opening chorus focuses on bringing the attention of the listener to the idea that virtue will provide rewards.
Mvt. 2. Recitative Tenor, bc -- Der Fleiss Diligence
The main thought here is that a dignified impulse within drives a man toward honor, and from that he will ultimately achieve a noble repose.
Mvt. 3. Aria Tenor, strings, bc -- Der Fleiss -- Diligence
Continuing along this line, the message is that a man should stay on a worthwhile path, and that his reward will be enumerated.
Mvt. 4. Recitative Soprano, Bass Die Ehre Honour
Elucidating the nature of this path, the wise man will choose a course of thorns rather than an easy way. His heart will be fearless and he will possess indefatigable courage. Through his generosity he will reap the fruits of abundance.
Mvt. 5. Aria Soprano and Bass duet and instrumentation: oboe, strings -- Die Ehre Honour
In this stanza the language becomes quite flowery, and the bestowal of a wreath of honour as regular dress is augmented by the promise of Fortune for blessing using the metaphor of pearls for riches. Moreover, the analogy of a stream arising with rivulets of blessing perhaps represents the abundance of the endeavor of hard work.
Mvt. 6. Recitative Alto, bc Die Dankbarkeit Gratitude
Students are encouraged to take this teacher as an example and to bring their gifts to the world in such a way that observers will marvel. An admonition to work devotedly for Kortte tells that efforts may bring about patrons as well as those who will be envious of future accomplishments.
Mvt. 7. Alto, unison strings, bc Die Dankbarkeit -- Gratitude
Deeds in the future should be divined by the students in such quality as to make imperishable the work of their instructor.
Mvt. 8. Recitative SATB, instrumentation: woodwinds, strings, bc Der Fleiss Diligence
Prodding lazy students, Kortte is upheld as an example of commitment to duty. The personified virtue of Diligence expresses his love for this senior academic. The question is raised, as to why one so accomplished should yet be honored. Honour personified is in this instance linked with Kortte and Fortune purports the satisfaction in achievements that one who trains others can recall. Gratitude again reflects that Korttes attention to duty is the reason the honors should continue.
Mvt. 9. Chorus SATB, and soloists, instrumentation: as in Mvt. 1, but oboes replace the oboe damore
Kortte lebe, Kortte blühe! Long live Kortte, may Kortte flourish!
Changes in key and instrumentation from the opening chorus provide a contrast to the Brandenburg work, and some parts move to the voices rather than previously used instrumentation. Dürr mentions Malcomb Boyds argument that the vocal work may have preceded the actual concerto composition.
Inner movements follow the usual alteration of recitatives and arias. Richly scored and with much variation these works include fashionably syncopated rhythms to text paint the idea of the works of the person who follows the path of diligence.
Some scoring elements:
The opening movement (Mvt. 1) exhibits a ceremonial march style tempo. In the initial chorus the tempo changes to 6/8 with celebratory offerings from the trumpets, while the other instruments put forward a rich texture. The opening bass line is accompanied initially by the continuo, and then the other three solo parts and the full chorus unite to expand the opening lines. Throughout, the continuo shifts occur in eight to sixteenth notes in unison with the bass. Next we have an instrumental interlude before more text. At this point the instrumentation is lessened, and the voices stand out. Another short instrumental interlude intensifies the movement, and once again the voices come back with a light texture above it. A tempo change to adagio for two measures signals new content, and the following section is led in by the bass and the continuo at an allegro tempo. Full instrumentation and voices swell together, and then the trumpets and timpani drop out briefly. The timpani resumes with the voices and all join in again. The final section of the chorus ends with a mixture of motives in all instrumental voices.
Recitative Mvt. 2 follows the pattern of longer notes in the continuo, while eighth and sixteenth notes are the choice to carry the solo line. I find it unique here as I have in some other observations that there is only one dotted note in the whole recitative. At this point I have not observed whether this is characteristic of Bach on particular words as a practice, or if he uses the syncopation to signal changes in content or to precede a cadence. Perhaps someone in the group has made some observations on these dotted rhythms.
Aria Mvt. 3 adds the tenor and strings along with the oboe damore I. Cut time is used in this movement and new rhythmic patterns and new dynamics emerge with some significant contrasts between forteand piano phrases.
Recitative Mvt. 4 offers the expected longer notes, along with eights and sixteenths in the vocal line.
Duetto Mvt. 5 provides a lively segment in the continuo that is in contrary motion with the soprano. The bass fits snugly between, echoing the opening supportive lines. Rising motives in both the soprano and the bass heighten the listening experience. The form is ABA.
Recitative Mvt. 6 opens with some initial exciting detached notes, and when the first violin enters the same pattern adds a plucky flavor. These rhythmic patterns vary from the preceding numbers. In this case, long notes and lengthy sustaining patterns under-gird the work of the alto. There are also two dotted notes in this case rather than the usual one, followed by an upward run toward the end. This may be a unique way in which a recitative endsperhaps some with more experience in the matter can comment. There may be some basis for drawing a comparison to recitative form in opera arias, or in relation to musica per drama patterns. If anyone in the group has insights on this matter they would be welcomed.
Aria Mvt. 7 slips into time with some nice legato phrasing in flauto I. These patterns are later picked up by the other instruments, and the voice includes multiple measures with six eighth notes to each. A new rhythmic motive brought in softly is in dotted eights and sixteenths, and plays out subtly through the piece. Again, we have ABA form.
Recitative Mvt. 8 is unique in that after an opening note the tenor sings without accompaniment for three measures, and then with minimal and interestingly placed continuo notes throughout his verse. The pattern for the bass continues in a similar manner, and the pattern extends to the soprano and the alto. I wonder if this form of continuo accompaniment is unique or if Bach employs similar patterns in other recitatives.
Chorus, Mvt. 9 has finally arrived in this lengthy work. All the instruments rejoin, and open at once with the voices. A light instrumental interlude follows, and then all come in again at once. The trumpets drop out briefly, as does the timpani, but not for long. The underlying tension of the initial march at the opening of this work can sometimes be felt or recognized in this ending.
As I went about researching this cantata I did not find much prepared information, so I took it upon myself, even with the possibility of some error or lack of comprehension to create something from which others, and listeners might study. The challenge has been so interesting. I might also add that Dürr offers some additional elements, should one decide to pursue this work further (p. 862).
Cantata BWV 207a is also listed for this coming week, and text is different, along with some other variations. However, having waded through this work, I will leave it to others to comment upon this additional and somewhat similar piece, pointing to similarities or differences.
Please share your comments. |
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Neil Halliday wrote (February 19, 2008):
There is only one BCW amazon.com sample for BWV 207 (celebrating Prof. Kortte's appointment at Leipzig Uni. in 1726) - Herreweghe [BWV 207-3], but you can hear three samples of BWV 207's parody cantata, namely BWV 207a (celebrating August II's birthday in 1735) - Bernius [BWV 207a-2], Rilling [BWV 207a-3] and Koopman [BWV 207a-4].
[BTW, don't fall out of your chair when you first access the BCW; you will hear a MIDI of BWV 207's opening chorus, an interesting novelty from Aryeh.]
These relatively recent recordings can obviously all be placed in the excellent category, with minor points of difference to discuss.
The opening chorus itself is a complete reworking of the 3rd movement of the 1st Brandenburg, rather than just having a chorus added to the existing instrumental material. In any case, it makes a wonderfully high-spirited opening chorus.
I'm not attracted to the recordings of the seccos; but I notice Bernius [BWV 207a-2] (cello alone) and Koopman [BWV 207a-4] (interesting lute) have more successful continuo accompaniment in BWV 207a's 1st recitative ("The quiet Pleisse plays with its little waves); Rilling's cello [BWV 207a-3] doubled by doubled bass is tiresome. (This 'waveform' continuo line is not heard in BWV 207 which has a different text and which is an ordinary secco).
The syncopation in the alto aria is charming, perhaps relating to the the images of 'steps' and 'feet' in the text. In BWV 207a the image of lighting 'rays' might tie in with the little three note descending figure first appearing on the 1st violin with the tenor's opening phrase. In any case, Bach was obviously happy to adapt the latter text to the existing music.
The SB duet is a charming. lively number with imitative counterpoint between S, B and continuo, unusually and attractively concluded by a large-scale ritornello based on the final trio of the Menuet from the 1st Brandenburg (OCC).
The alto aria is particularly interesting in that one can compare the obvious word painting in BWV 207 - the attractive repeated dotted-note figure in the unison upper strings obviously representing the act of chiselling marble: "Etch/engrave this remembrance in the hardest marble" - with the new text in 207a and see if the latter text still fits the music. One can possibly can relate the figure to an image of an 'echo of time' referred to in 207a's text: "Praise, in the distant future, Augustus' great fortune".
In any case (Immerhin!) the music is most enjoyable in both cases, with the flowing flute 'duet' and continuo line contrasting with the dotted string figure.
The final (accompanied) recitative becomes tedious with the rather short chords in the Rilling recording [BWV 207a-3]. Koopman [BWV 207a-4] might be better with more expressive, slightly longer held chords (more the length of the full notated crotchet).
Be prepared to be roused and excited by the closing chorus. The 'massive minims' at the start (and corressponding places) of the full score (17 staves; with timpani), and the periodic little 'comma' on two lone flutes, are attractive features of this uplifting chorus.
The BGA (in Band 20 for those with the CD ROM copies) shows a "march" at the beginning of BWV 207 which is nevertheless only heard in the recordings of BWV 207a by Rilling [BWV 207a-3] and Koopman [BWV 207a-4]. Koopman begins and ends his performance of 207a with the same large scale orchestration; Rilling has a 'chamber' version for three oboes and bassoon, after the tenor aria, and a version for full orchestra after the alto aria, all most enjoyable. (The BGA score on eight staves does not specify the instrumentation). |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (February 19, 2008):
[To Neil Halliday] Thanks, Neil, for adding below some depth to the background of this work and pointing out some of the different aspects of the two that share the spotlight this week. I wonder if anyone of the list has ever attended a live performance of this particular cantata. It seems like it would make a good work (if somewhat ambitious) to be performed in an academic setting today. |
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Peter Smaill wrote (February 19, 2008):
Jean Laaninen wrote:
<..wonder if anyone of this list has ever attended a live performance of this particular cantata. It seems like it would make a good work (if somewhat ambitious) to be performed in an academic setting today..>
Well actually, just so! Parts of this Cantata were performed in November 2007 to great effect to celebrate the Tercentenary of the founding of the Faculty of Law at Edinburgh University, (incidentally where?I studied in the 1970's); ?and also Cantatas written by the first Professor of Scots Law there, Alexander Bayne. The latter were secular works in Italian but nevertheless surprising in the oft-assumed Calvinist culture which preceded the Enlightenment there.?
The texts of BWV 207 are intriguing . The idea of engraving tributes on marble recurs, having been used at Weimar and Leipzig in conjunction with Christmas in BWV 63, "Christen aetzet diesen tag". Whereas in the sacred Cantatas? contemporary Leipzig is often alluded to as a "New Jerusalem" , here the allusion is to "the age of Astraea", i.e. the Golden Age . Astraea was daughter of the King of Arcadia.
The final chorus of the academic-congratulatory BWV 205 was?I recall adapted by Princeton many years ago to celebrate?living academics and maybe these works would have more currency if such experiments were ?attempted more often. Or do we treasure our Professors less than in former times!! |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (February 19, 2008):
[To Peter Smaill] Thank you Peter, for bringing the group up to date on live performances of this work, in particular in academic settings. Your addition of the details of the particular context of each setting is also helpful. As to your question of whether we treasure our professors less than in former times sometimes in the US this appears to be the case, but here appreciation has become more individualized than corporate as some of our schools are so very large and schedules are so packed with concerts and events. Nonetheless, I believe we have suitable instances for a work like this one and the idea of personalization a very good one. |
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Terejia wrote (February 20, 2008):
[To Jean Laaninen]
Replies in between:
Jean Laaninen wrote:
< (snipped)
In this case the characters are: Diligence, Honour, Fortune and Gratitude, with the first two considerably personified. An interesting aspect in this selection is that the human paths of age progression and character growth development in the teacher ultimately reflect back as culminating in noble repose for the exertion of all the work diligence requires. The students who are recipients of these labors represent the future and are presented as a likeness to a tree that grows from good roots. Thus this leading educator is honored for his attention to duty.
The celebratory Brandenburg concertos, produced as an offering by Bach for the royalty are the basis for the opening chorus. The third movement of Concerto I (BWV 1046) is applied. Generally, the structure of Bach's musical compositions is so complete and rational that adaptation of material for more than one purpose is not uncommon, but beyond this fact, a listener can also find melodies and other harmonic implications that still can be interpreted and/or enjoyed in reflecting upon human experience today. Bach and his works have a timeless quality in both their objective and subjective elements. >
This opening chorus has a different key from that of Brandenburg Concerto #1. I feel different impact.
Just my primitive impression(having no formal music education other than private organ lessons and choir experience) I wonder if Bach was trying to explore aethetic potentials of the same material just as a painter might explore aethetic potentials of the same colour? I concur that Bach pursued musical perfection to the best of his ability by using the same material over and over in a different version, arrangement and context. Pardon me for sounding too trite.
< Layout of the cantata:
Mvt. 1. Opening chorus -- SATB instrumentation: timpani, flutes, oboe damore, strings
The opening chorus focuses on bringing the attention of the listener to the idea that virtue will provide rewards.
Mvt. 2. Recitative Tenor, bc -- Der Fleiss Diligence
The main thought here is that a dignified impulse within drives a man toward honor, and from that he will ultimately achieve a noble repose.
Mvt. 3. Aria Tenor, strings, bc -- Der Fleiss -- Diligence
Continuing along this line, the message is that a man should stay on a worthwhile path, and that his reward will be enumerated.
Mvt. 4. Recitative Soprano, Bass Die Ehre Honour
Elucidating the nature of this path, the wise man will choose a course of thorns rather than an easy way. His heart will be fearless and he will possess indefatigable courage. Through his generosity he will reap the fruits of abundance.
Mvt. 5. Aria Soprano and Bass duet and instrumentation: oboe, strings -- Die Ehre Honour
In this stanza the language becomes quite flowery, and the bestowal of a wreath of honour as regular dress is augmented by the promise of Fortune for blessing using the metaphor of pearls for riches. Moreover, the analogy of a stream arising with rivulets of blessing perhaps represents the abundance of the endeavor of hard work.
Mvt. 6. Recitative Alto, bc Die Dankbarkeit Gratitude
Students are encouraged to take this teacher as an example and to bring their gifts to the world in such a way that observers will marvel. An admonition to work devotedly for Kortte tells that efforts may bring about patrons as well as those who will be envious of future accomplishments.
Mvt. 7. Alto, unison strings, bc Die Dankbarkeit -- Gratitude
Deeds in the future should be divined by the students in such quality as to make imperishable the work of their instructor.
Mvt. 8. Recitative SATB, instrumentation: woodwinds, strings, bc Der Fleiss Diligence
Prodding lazy students, Kortte is upheld as an example of commitment to duty. The personified virtue of Diligence expresses his love for this senior academic. The question is raised, as to why one so accomplished should yet be honored. Honour personified is in this instance linked with Kortte and Fortune purports the satisfaction in achievements that one who trains others can recall. Gratitude again reflects that Korttes attention to duty is the reason the honors should continue.
Mvt. 9. Chorus SATB, and soloists, instrumentation: as in Mvt. 1, but oboes replace the oboe damore
Kortte lebe, Kortte blühe! Long live Kortte, may Kortte flourish!
Changes in key and instrumentation from the opening chorus provide a contrast to the Brandenburg work, and some parts move to the voices rather than previously used instrumentation. Dürr mentions Malcomb Boyds argument that the vocal work may have preceded the actual concerto composition. >
Interesting phylosophyical comments, which I enjoyed.
I am score oriented person, too. However, I don't have much time (or enough mental energy) to go to the cantata score recently.
The other day, I took my organ lesson from a professional organist. It seems that many posts here in this list have contributed to my organ lesson. I'd like to express thanks to this list. |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (February 20, 2008):
[To Terejia] Your point that perhaps Bach: "was trying to explore aethetic potentials of the same material just as a painter might explore aethetic potentials of the same colour?" is an interesting idea, and I think it seems rational to assume that part of Bach's over-all technique was just as you describe.
You go on to say:" I concur that Bach pursued musical perfection to the best of his ability by using the same material over and over in a different version, arrangement and context. Pardon me for sounding too trite."
I actually don't think you sound trite, and this is a logical avenue to pursue when evaluating a score. Of course you are right and not at all primitive. In my writing I did not extend the idea of how Bach used Brandenburg in 207, but brought up the context, so you are correct to add your impressions. We get a richer discussion sometimes when the person in charge doesn't evaluate everything, but lays the ground to allow others to get in their views, I think.
Many years ago when I had studpiano for a long time, there was a sudden organist vacancy in one church and I was forced into the situation of being the only one around who could fill in. I had knowledge of Bach as my mother was a good organist, and a friend from college whom I watched and listened to for a longer time was quite expert in the area of improvising on Bach's material. But I had not studied music theory at that time, and only completed Baroque Music Theory in my fifties. So I was not aware of all the implications until much later. Then a few years later in another church the organist moved away, and once again I was the only person qualified to play in our Lutheran setting. At that point I worked in some lessons on the organ through a Concordia College trained organist--so I got the acceptable Lutheran slant on things in the German format. I played for a long time total--seven and a half years of services between substitutions and regular positions, and only when I finally was able to take up music theory late in life did I begin to understand that Bach could take a few very simple motives and handle them with such variety as to continuously be painting out his ideas, to use your metaphor. So he was always imagining, I think, what he could do to further the use of given material.
If the instrumentation in a piece is not changed, the colors of that individual movement would not be changed except for possibly organ registration, or, if instrumental or vocal parts were rearranged, then there would be a new kind of painting of the work. In the case this week, voices took over for some instruments for example, and Neil has described the changes well in his post. So yes, Bach is painting something new out of something old, and I have read that he, as was the case with others of his time not only improvised in performance, but this was expected.
As an organ student you will find much on a continuing basis here to enhance what you are doing, and I know that the list members are glad when someone comes along and can use their insights and advice.
Best wishes on your musical accomplishments. |
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Terejia wrote (February 22, 2008):
[To Jean Laaninen]
Thank you for your gracious reply.
More in bewteen lines :
Jean Laaninen wrote:
> (..)
Bach could take a few very simple motives and handle them with such variety as to continuously be painting out his ideas, to use your metaphor. So he was always imagining, I think, what he could do to further the use of given material.<
Yes, that's what interests me : aethetic potentials of the same simple chorale melody. BWV 4 could be one of such an example, I suppose. Really enriching experience!!
>> If the instrumentation in a piece is not changed, the colors of that individual movement would not be changed except for possibly organ registration, or, if instrumental or vocal parts were rearranged, then there would be a new kind of painting of the work. In the case this week, voices took over for some instruments for example, and Neil has described the changes well in his post. So yes, Bach is painting something new out of something old, and I have read that he, as was the case with others of his time not only improvised in performance, but this was expected.<<
As score of this particular cantata seems to be missing in the usual Link in Bach Cantata web page, I don't know if my ear is hearing correctly...first chorus in D dur? Brandenburg Nr.1 was in F dur I am sure. I noticed some instrumental change. Does this cantata BWV 207 first chorus has trumpet? I'm not sure if I am hearing correctly.
Years ago before I attended Messiah choir rendered by period emsemble in A=415, I used to be able to dicern modern instument pitch correctly (I could even dicern what music note did phone bell play)but after attending that choir and some other A=415 experience in choir, I became unable to do so any more...
I have Herreweghe version [BWV 207-3]. As to the last gloriously sounding chorus, I do remember vividly when I first heard that piece on a radio without knowing what composer nor what the name of the piece. The melody was still there in my mind for decades and I'm extremely glad I finally meet the piece again!!!
< As an organ student you will find much on a continuing basis here to enhance what you are doing, and I know that the list members are glad when someone comes along and can use their insights and advice.
Best wishes on your musical accomplishments. >
Many thanks for this heartwarming encouragement.
I've been an organist for two digits years now. Although I lack in formal music education, somehow organ and Bach's music has been with me regardless of my change in job careers and I simply cannot imagine myself not playing organ. I continued playing Bach's Orgelbuechlein chorale everyday even during times when I was preparing for solicitor's legal state exam although it was just three minutes a day. These days, having passed the legal state exam, I have more time for organ and currently working on BWV 682 and 670.
In my small local town in Japan, even I, being a solicitor without formal music education can be a regular organist, although I don't believe I could ever be in a regular position were I in USA or Europa. |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (February 22, 2008):
[To Terijia] I am always intrigued by the depth of study many people on this list make. Since I must practice and have various demands on my time I do not always get into as many cantatas as some members who have been long-time contributors. Many people, like Brad and Julian have so much experience that they can quickly identify associations between cantatas, and they are more qualified than I am to affirm or deny the validity of these connections. Each of the reviews I have written has taken nearly ten hours to prepare between time researching and looking at scoring elements. So my intent is to produce cogent writings based on the BGA, Kalmus or Dover scores which I have been able to access in preparation for these reviews.
Having said that, I would ask those better equipped to respond to the comparison and contrast questions or comments. One other thing you can do is to acquire a copy of Dürr. He gives the instrumentation for each cantata. I am not sure of his score source. There are other score sources, NBA, and so on that sometimes complicate the matter of how we communicate on these issues. I also cannot tell precisely what someone else's ear actually hears, and I do not have the time available to listen to a wide range of recordings, so in this matter, you are on your own, or with help from the discography group. Here, at our school music library we do not own all of those sources, but Brad is knowledgable about all of them, and the most help in this regard. The best idea on such detail is to send Julian or Brad a separate email...in my view.
As to who can be an organist in America...that's pretty wide open. There are not so many studying to play the organ today and many schools here in the US have eliminated their organ departments. There is more demand for organists than can sometimes fill positions. Each church picks its own organist, and sometimes churches try people out for a month or two before deciding to keep or eliminate them. Churches in smaller towns sometimes are not as fussy as in big cities, but if you are playing Bach daily you would no doubt find a job here. |
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Terejia wrote (February 23, 2008):
Introduction to BWV 207 and some other things
[To Jean Laaninen] Dear Jean, replies inbetween :
< I am always intrigued by the depth of study many people on this list make. Since I must practice and have various demands on my time I do not always get into as many cantatas as some members who have been long-time contributors. Many people, like Brad and Julian have so much experience that they can quickly identify associations between cantatas, and they are more qualified than I am to affirm or deny the validity of these connections. Each of the reviews I have written has taken nearly ten hours to prepare between time researching and looking at scoring elements. So my intent is to produce cogent writings based on the B, Kalmus or Dover scores which I have been able to access in preparation for these reviews.
Having said that, I would ask those better equipped to respond to the comparison and contrast questions or comments. One other thing you can do is to acquire a copy of DEr. He gives the instrumentation for each cantata. I am not sure of his score source. There are other score sources, NBA, and so on that sometimes complicate the matter of how we communicate on these issues. I also cannot tell precisely what someone else's ear actually hears, and I do not have the time available to listen to a wide range of recordings, so in this matter, you are on your own, or with help from the discography group. Here, at our school music library we do not own all of those sources, but Brad is knowledgable about all of them, and the most help in this regard. The best idea on such detail is to send Julian or Brad a separate email...in my view.
(..) >
Well, firstly, sorry for showing lazy and dependent attitude of mine here : although I have been aware that regular contributors here seem to be dedicated and diligent, I didn't exactly know what due diligency here was. Although in a sense I have been a regular lister of Bach Cantatas for years, mostly I listen to it just absentmindedly when I am preparing for my work, and consults to the score I have access to only when I have some time, not with a due diligence that I got as an overall general impression from your reply.
Yes, I sincerely respect and admire those who are dedicated to Bach and music on a full time basis and appreciate the help from those. I know that surely "side-workers" like myself can go nowhere near those professionals in its profoundness, depth, graciousness and many other respects, which is part of the reason why I feel I'd like to post with my non-professional casual comments. I am extremely impressed that you took so much time in preparing posts to this list and although I KNOW you are by no means accusing me for my casualness, I felt I lacked due consideration on my own part.
Sorry, should my too casual question asking show a lack of due diligence required even to non-professionals and hence feel like a lack of due respect toward dedicated professionals.
Thank you again, for your heartwarming encouragement. |
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Terejia wrote (February 23, 2008):
PS due diligence required in Bach
Jean Laaninen wrote:
< I am always intrigued by the depth of study many people on this list make. Since I must practice and have various demands on my time I do not always get into as many cantatas as some members who have been long-time contributors. Many people, like Brad and Julian have so much experience that they can quickly identify associations between cantatas, and they are more qualified than I am to affirm or deny the validity of these connections. Each of the reviews I have written has taken nearly ten hours to prepare between time researching and looking at scoring elements. So my intent is to produce cogent writings based on the BGA, Kalmus or Dover scores which I have been able to access in preparation for these reviews.
(..) >
In my last post, I just wished to say, how dedicated professionals (including you) can provides with invaluable riches and blessings which casual listeners or amateur performers can reach nowhere near, and how I appreciate the insights a lot.
In my limited personal impression, Bach may require more such due diligency in performers and listeners when compared with another area of music-especially modern pop music where free casual inspiration may count more than due diligency. |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (February 23, 2008):
[To Terejia] Thank you for your appreciation, and of course good work often takes a lot of time in the beginning. Some people have the most amazing minds, and retain information like a living encyclopedia. For me it takes a more disciplined path because my natural way of thinking is to take many elements and forge them into something new--my style is synthetic, I join things. I don't think you need to apologize at all. We each come to this circle of discussion from a different vantage point. During the time I have been able to take college and university studies in music I have continuously discovered how each person comes from yet another slightly different spot in the educational and/or performance world. And, as is usually the case, all have strengths and lesser areas. That isn't bad--just a fact of life. Therefore to enrich everyone else everyone who is able may well offer questions and/or answer that help.
The thing that does help me to write fairly clearly (even when I may be wrong) came through college courses, first. At the same time I become highly annoyed with my mother who was an English major in her college years. When I would write letters home she would correct my language and mail them back to me. I was so tired of this by my junior year that I wrote home very seldom. Later I had jobs in churches and schools that required that everything be presented clearly if I did not want to get myself into trouble, and in those settings I learned to handle my occasional errors with grace. In the same settings I also learned to understand who owns a problem if there is one, and by means of questions to hand issues back to people who could solve them either on their own or with the proper help. But I did not think they were lazy because they asked me first, and if I had a good answer for them I would gladly give it. If I wasn't qualified to provide an answer I learned to say so.
How that came about is an interesting story. I was working for Dey-Florin Funeral Home in St. Joseph, Michigan. My job was a combination employment. I did executive secretarial work combined with helping the funeral home to develop a community resource--Bereavement Resource Center. I had communication in that setting with some of the famous authorities in the area of death and dying, including Dr. Elisabeth Kubler-Ross and a Dr. Davidson, and others. My work along with my boss John Florin was published in the National Funeral Director's Association magazine, and various universities picked up on the bibliography I developed for the center. I was sent to seminars conducted by my employers, and at Dr. Davidson's seminar one of the participants tried to force Dr. Davidson to answer some questions that he felt was clearly out of his league. I will never forget how he handled this mildly irate person, but he never breached his integrity by trying to pretend to know what he did not. That set a life-time example for me.
I have been priviledged to learn a lot, but I do not see myself at the same level of the professional musicologists in our group, even though I am happy to take a different point of view in discussion, and sometimes ascede to their conclusions.
You're fine in the group...and the key to the answers you seek is a matter of asking the right question of the right person. That's an honorable thing to do, because no one knows everything, but all of us are on the way to growing more in knowledge every day. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (February 23, 2008):
Some other things [was BWV 207]
Reply to Terejia, interlinear from two previous posts:
>Well, firstly, sorry for showing lazy and dependent attitude of mine here : although I have been aware that regular contributors here seem to be dedicated and diligent, I didn't exactly know what due diligency here was.<
Reply:
You are more kind tnan necessary. Regular contributors here express their opinions, sometimes highly qualified, other times not qualified in the least. Mostly, somewhere in the middle.
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>I know that surely "side-workers" like myself can go nowhere near those professionals in its profoundness, depth, graciousness and many other respects, which is part of the reason why I feel I'd like to post with my non-professional casual comments.<
Reply:
I hope you will continue to do so. Many (perhaps most) of the great discoveries and insights have been made by non-professionals. Perhaps more significant, many other discoveries have been made by professionals, but by accident, while looking for something el. This does not always make the professionals happy, other than when they become wealthy by accident.
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>I would prefer leaving "proof" "evidence" in a courtroom-or other fields where those are essential tools in study and/or practice. Such things may well be essential in music/art study for professionals, well...I am nowhere near judging professionally.<
>However, as for myself, I would rather enjoy and appreciate enriching creativity in ideas, opinions, impressions, etc. [...] when it comes to Bach, there may well be certain due restriction but for now in my personal limited experience I just have not yet encountered due restriction in such links or connotations as we three (Ed, Julian and myself) have been talking about especially in listeners' part.<
Reply:
Our discussion is interesting. For my part, I expect it will be ongoing. I enjoy noticing some similarities between the solo cantatas we mentioned, especially BWV 169 and BWV 55, with BWV 244 (SMP). Perhaps we will notice additional. As Julian carefully (and professionally) points out, we are not likely to reach the status of proof in a court of law, let alone a music academy (not that one is more or less diligent than the other). I agree with his conclusion: that is no reason that we should not enjoy the discussion, not to say specualtion.
I hope you will continue to post opinions when you have the time. We need more of that. For my part (strictly non-professional), I found your reaction to BWV 55 especially stimulating for additional listening. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (February 23, 2008):
Introduction to BWV 207
It is sometimes easy to overlook that BCML is a music discussion group.
How ironic that BWV 207 might be considered an Ode to Diligence? Perhaps Terejia recognized that, or was it simply Fortune intervening?
You may sense my Gratitude for the respite from Lutheran theology, be it Pietist , Orthodox, or Twenty-first Century Conciliatory (21CC, all rights reserved). On my Honour, I cannot detect a single word of specifically Lutheran text in BWV 207. It is also ironic that the four human virtues of the secular BWV 207 are common to any religion ever proposed by man (or God). On the other hand, the virtues of monotheistic (?) Christianity, just to use the closest example, have bitterly divided one man from another, even to the level of Pietist versus Orthodox Lutheran.
It would be satisfying if the secular text for BWV 207, or BWV 207a, were as inspiring as some of the theologic texts for the sacred cantatas, but that is not the case. I am unable to find a single memorable line. Perhaps something is lost in the translation? Immerhin (in any case), that does not make the music any less pleasant to listen to, at least IMO. I will leave you to ponder how necessary the sacred inspiration of the texts is to the beauty of Bachs music, in general. I would not be surprised if the professional analysts find that Bach used his most sophisticated musical devices in the sacred cantatas, or in secular cantatas that were ultimately reworked, as in next weeks BWV 34.
Comments on recordings to follow. Thanks as always to Neil for keeping his focus on the music, and for providing information on the publicly available samples. This week, I found the Rilling samples [BWV 207a-3] especially helpful and easily accessible even to my old software. I confirmed that I prefer the other available individual versions, Koopman [BWV 207a-4] and Herreweghe [BWV 207-3], as well as Schreier [BWV 207-1] with the Brilliant Classics complete Bach Edition, still available at bargain price, about US$100. Details soon. |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (February 23, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski] I agree with you Ed...no particular spiritual enlightenment in 207, but a nice challenge to explore the form musica per drama as I had not done so previously. Bach, being a man of great character and certainly a pristine example of diligence no doubt found some enjoyment in composing for the academic community in this instance. You're right--Neil does an exceptional job of keeping us focused on the music, and I think that's enough comment from me at the moment. |
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Peter Smaill wrote (February 23, 2008):
[To Jean Laaninen] Before leaving BWV207 it is worth recording the researches of Peter Wollny, who repeats the hypothesis that the author of the libretto is likley to be Heinrich Gottlieb Schellhafer, who knew Kortte and twelve years later published a cantata libretto couched in a very similar language.
The aria, BWV 207/7 (Mvt. 7), "Aetzet dieses Angedenken", is a highlight, with the strings scratching away as if engraving the marble referred to, in complete contrast to the flowing oboe motif perhaps illustrating the passage of time. This word painting must have attracted Ton Koopman who in his reconstruction of ther St Mark Passion (BWV 247) uses the contrasting affekt in the aria 45, "Angenehmes Mord-Geschrei! ("O welcome shouts of death") which occurs after the crowd call for crucifixion, concluding, "O make that bitter cross and passion softer for me to bear". |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (February 23, 2008):
[To Peter Smaill] Thanks, Peter, for your addition. Here, I was not able to locate a great deal of information on this cantata, and little had been written in past discussions--so, these additions that a few people have been able to bring to the topic will at least increase the web archives and our appreciation of what went into the work. |
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Paul T. McCain wrote (February 23, 2008):
> It is sometimes easy to overlook that BCML is a music discussion group.<
No, Ed, actually that is incorrect.
Perhaps it would be well to refresh our memory of what this list is, from the home page:
A. The subject should relate to J.S. Bach:
- BCML is mostly dedicated to discussions of Bach Cantatas & Bach's other vocal works.
The subject of this list is J.S. Bach chiefl a discussion of his Cantatas and other vocal works.
There is therefore nothing untoward or inappropriate with a hearty, even robust, conversation the theology and practice of the Lutheran Church at the time of Bach.
I know some find this particular subject distracting and even unpleasing, but....I find nothing in it to be irrelevant to trying to understand Bach's thinking.
Again and again I find myself reflecting on the question of what was it about the culture, beliefs, and practices of Lutheran Orthodoxy that gave rise to the great musical achievements of J.S. Bach and his many predecessors in the Lutheran Church, including, but not limited to the great hymn writers, the great composers: Schuetz, Telemann, even Handel, etc. continuing right down to the man who discovered Bach anew for us, Mendelsohn?
Why is it that we do not find a similar flowering of sacred music from Pietists, or Calvinists?
All interesting things, of relevance to these conversations about J.S. Bach. |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (February 23, 2008):
[To Paul T. McCain] Thanks for sharing your viewpoint here, Paul. I agree that the broader elements surrounding the music add a great deal to the discussion. And, given we had a week with a lesser known, and perhaps lesser appreciated cantata, I felt that this was a good time to create a little more discussion off topic. In addition to all the various persons who have contributed to the topic, I've had several off-list affirmations of the same. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (February 24, 2008):
OT - Lutheran Theology [was: Introduction to BWV 207]
Paul McCain wrote:
>Again and again I find myself reflecting on the question of what was it about the culture, beliefs, and practices of Lutheran Orthodoxy that gave rise to the great musical achievements of J.S. Bach<
No, Paul, that is incorrect.
For an alternate perspective, consider the rubric used by TNT, from a letter of Bach, describing the conditions in Leipzig, ca. 1730 (available in Wolff, B:LM, p. 343, cited from New Bach Reader):
<the authorities are odd and little interestin music, so that I must live amid almost continual vexation, envy, and persecution>
One might fairly wonder if the genius of Bach did not thrive in spite of, rather than as a result of, the culture of Lutheran Orthodoxy? |
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Paul T. McCain wrote (February 24, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski] Bach's frustration was with the town leaders and their policies and rules, not with the Lutheran faith. The only reason he hung in there and continued his work, in spite of the irks and irritations [of which he was surely also a cause, not merely innocent victim] was because he knew he was part of something much, much larger than himself.
And what was that?
That's my point.
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Ed Myskowski wrote (February 24, 2008):
Paul McCain wrote:
>Bach's frustration was with the town leaders and their policies and rules, not with the Lutheran faith.<
As if they were two distinct entities?
>The only reason he hung in there and continued his work, in spite of the irks and irritations [of which he was surely also a cause, not merely innocent victim] was because he knew he was part of something much, much larger than himself.<
This overlooks two important points:
(1) He did not write a lot of new sacred music after 1730.
(2) He tried, without success, to get out of Leipzig. He did not necessarily target positions which were specifically Lutheran Orthodox.
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Paul T. McCain wrote (February 24, 2008):
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Ed Myskowski wrote (February 24, 2008):
BWV 207 recordings
All eight recordings are listed, to avoid confusion between the two alternate versions. Four of them are readily available.
BWV 207:
Schreier [BWV 207-1] is likely to be the most familiar, since it is included in the Brilliant Classics Bach Edition, at least the 160 CD version of a few years ago.
Goebel [BWV 207-2] is included with the Teldec Bach 200 set of secular cantatas on Teldec, which was available recently at bargain price, but now appears to be out of print.
Herreweghe [BWV 207-3] is readily available as a recent issue.
Leonhardt [BWV 207-4] does not appear to be available, perhaps not as yet released?
BWV 207a:
Kahlhöfer [BWV 207a-1] is on LP only.
Bernius [BWV 207a-2] appears to be available only as high priced second-hand CDs. Neil reports that listening samples still available, which I did not try to access.
Rilling [BWV 207a-3] is readily available, and appears to include the recitatives for BWV 207 as well as complete BWV 207a. Listening samples of all tracks are available, at present.
Koopman [BWV 207a-4] as his Vol. 5, a four CD set which can be found in the %30 range, and is readily available at higher price. It was also included in the Teldec set, along with Goebel [BWV 207-2], providing two very different performances.
Personal opinions:
I enjoyed listening to the Kahlhöfer LP [BWV 207a-1], both for the performance, and to hear how continuo sounds when played with long-held organ tones, as written. It certainly sounds archaic, in the context of more contemporary ideas. At some points instruments overwhelm the vocal lines. Very much a traditional performance, nice to have it around all the same.
Schreier [BWV 207-1] is also what I would call traditional. It is worth hearing for the big name and big voice soloists, especially tenor Peter Schreier and alto Julia Hamari. The continuo uses harpsichord, but it is marred by the same heavy bass accompaniment that Neil mentioned with Rilling [BWV 207a-3].
Goebel [BWV 207-2] has idiosyncratic tempos, quick in the arias and chorus, and slow in the recitatives. I do not see the point. If the Teldec set can be found, this is the best opportunity to hear a male in the a lot parts, and it makes an interesting contrast with the Koopman [BWV 207a-4] which is also included.
Either Koopman [BWV 207a-4] or Herreweghe [BWV 207-3] is an excellent choice. Both are nicely balanced with respect to sound dynamics and tempos. With Koopman you get to hear the march which goes with BWV 207a, played twice in fact, as entrance and exit. There is a lot of variety in continuo composition from one movement to another, including the use of lute, guitar, and double bass, as well as harpsichord and cello. The continuo for each movement is specified in the booklet notes to Koopmans own set, but not with the Teldec set. For example, the tenor recitative and the duet recitative are both accompanied by cello and lute only, to very nice effect.
With Herreweghe [BWV 207-3], you do not get to hear the march, otherwise at least the equal of Koopman [BWV 207a-4]. Incidentally, Ingebord Danz is the alto with both Herreweghe and Rilling [BWV 207a-3], if you enjoy making that sort of comparison. Both the duet and alto arias are superb, my choice for best. I have come to enjoy Herreweghes polished performances very much. I do not think Neil agrees, although I am not sure in this instance.
For comparison of tempos, timings of the duet aria, from slow to fast, are: Schreier, 6:18 [BWV 207-1]; Herreweghe, 5:44 [BWV 207-3]; Koopman, 4:59 [BWV 207a-4]; Goebel, 4:14 [BWV 207-2]. Only Goebel sounds too fast to me. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (February 24, 2008):
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Ed Myskowski wrote (February 24, 2008):
BWV 207 recordings [was: OT - BWV 34 and recitatives]
Thanks to both Jean and Brad for refreshing our memories about the link to Brad's article, which link was posted last year as well. Apologies, I did not get around to reading it at that time. The link is also archived under <Continuo in Bachs Vocal Works>, and can be recovered relatively easily by searching, for example, <continuo> and <lehman>. For convenience, here it is again: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/recits.htm
If I had read the article previously, I would have said even a bit more than I did last night, about continuo in BWV 207. The work itself is something of a microcosm of the tremendous variety Bach could manage in a relatively brief space, and with virtually no help from the text. If you think I am being unnecessarily harsh, consider Whittaker:
<The librettist was a hard taskmaster to the composer in the recitatives; they are long and contain little to stimulate the Muse>, or <Mvt. v [Duet Recit.] is a terribly long-winded recitative.>
Probably on that basis, the recitatives were rather bruskly turned aside in the first round of discussions. I think ignoring them overlooks some potentially interesting music, whether or not the poetry is worthy of it. Try Koopman [BWV 207a-4] for a variety of sounds, or Herreweghe [BWV 207-3] for an elegant, contemporary approach. In the particular example of BWV 207, to grasp Brads points about advances in continuo performance practice and scholarship over the past forty and more years, and to hear a comparison, you will have to find a way to access the Kahlhöfer LP [BWV 207a-1].
Other, more accessible examples are sure to be available, which we can point out as they arise in the weekly discussions. |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (February 24, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski] Thanks, Ed, for adding your insights here. There's a lot to learn and consider. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (February 25, 2008):
A few additional thoughts to preserve, and one correction, before closing out on BWV 207.
Regarding Mvt. 1, and its relation to Brandenburg Concerto No. 1, Dürr concludes:
<Malcolm Boyd has argued persuasively that the vocal version is the original and the instrumental version a derivative, both having had a common source in an older vocal work, presumably a lost secular cantata from Bachs earlier years at Cöthen (1717-21)>
This is appealing from a practical standpoint as well. Peter Wollny writes, in the notes to Herreweghes recording [BWV 207-3], that if in fact Bach freshly prepared the vocal adaptation in 1726, <this should by no means be seen as a labor-saving measure; on the contrary, with the self-imposed task of writing four additional voice parts into a pre-existing, densely scored orchestral movement, Bach made things so difficult for himself that it certainly would have cost him less effort to compose a totally new piece.>
Any details that anyone can add regarding the provenance of the composition and scores would be welcome.
In her introduction, Jean notes the use of oboe damore I, in the tenor aria Mvt. 3. My understanding is that the oboe part is not present in BWV 207, but was added later for the adaptation as BWV 207a. This oboe is not listed in the instrumentation for Koopman [BWV 207a-4], but it sounds to me like it is in fact there, doubling violin I. Perhaps someone who is accustomed to evaluating orchestral texture can comment. The oboe is easily distinguished on the Kahlhöfer LP [BWV 207a-1].
Incidentally, in listening to this LP again to check for the oboe, I realized that I previously misjudged the continuo accompaniment to recitatives, on a quick listen. Without going into a lot of detail, the easiest thing to suggest is simply to ignore my earlier comment regarding <sustained organ tones, as written>. In fact, I did not have an opportunity to check the score to see what is written, but that is certainly not what is played. There will be other examples of the sustained tone effect; this is not one of them.
Jean points out the unique structure of the quartet recitative, Mvt. 8. Although the accompaniment includes strings and winds as well as continuo, it is nevertheless a good example of Bach writing out the effect that Brad Lehamn describes as <punctuating the continuo bass with rests>. Whittaker nicely describes this effect in BWV 207:
<the orchestra punctuates with crotchet chords, all instruments almost always moving together. Rests are frequent, sometimes as long as seven beats, so that the greater part of the text stands out unaccompanied.> |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (February 25, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski] I have tenor aria iii with Oboe d'amore l in the BGA...just checked...it's in the score. I think what we have going on many times is writers using a variety of scores...this is BWV 207.
On everything else we seem to be in agreement, and thank you for polishing the apple. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (February 26, 2008):
BWV 207 [was: Kuijkens renditions]
Jean Laaninen wrote:
>Dürr does not include oboe d'amore in aria iii of BWV 207... I checked that after checking my score. So, it is possible that there has been some cross use of scores, or perhaps material included that belongs elsewhere--or, alternatively yet one more optional choice someone made.<
Dürr provides details with BWV 207a:
<The movements adopted from BWV 207 (nos. 1, 3, 5, and 7-9) are, on the whole, altered only to the extent required by the new textual underlay. In the third movement an oboe is added to the strings, but it serves largely as tuuti reinforcement for the first violin. [...] It was probably for this version of the cantata that Bach added the March.>
To add to the uncertainty, Koopman's recording is BWV 207a [BWV 207a-4], the expected oboe is not listed in the instrumentation, but I think (not certain) I hear it. Sorry to get bogged down in this detail, but it was looking for the effect of the oboe that got me to listen a bit more this morning. I do not have a score available so I cannot help there. I would guess changes were made with the NBA edition, and that is what corresponds with Dürr's text.
As best I can tell, the March is only available with Koopman [BWV 207a-4] (twice) and Rilling [BWV 207a-3], of the currently available recordings. It is charming and worth hearing, perhaps a factor in choosing one of those two in preference to Herreweghe [BWV 207-3]. Incidentally, from the amazon.com listing and complete samples, the Rilling appears to be BWV BWV 207a including March, plus only the three recitatives (2, 4, and 6) which are diffferent in BWV 207. |
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Jean Laaninen wrote (February 26, 2008):
[To Ed Myskowski] Thanks Ed. If I thought about this too long I'd get confused. Suffice it to say I left out the conductor's options. |
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Neil Halliday wrote (February 27, 2008):
BWV 207a/3: oboe in Koopman?
Ed Myskowski wrote:
>Koopmans recording is BWV 207a, the expected oboe is not listed in the instrumentation, but I think (not certain) I hear it.<
I agree the oboe (d'amore) is difficult to hear in Koopman's BWV 207a/3 (Mvt. 3), but I also think I hear it (in the sample which consists of bars 14-24 approx) as the oboe rejoins the 1st violins in bar 21. The effect of the oboe doubling the 1st violins is much more audible in Rilling's recording. |
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Continue on Part 3 |
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