Continue from Part 1

Jorge Cacho wrote (September 21, 2000):

Recently I've bought Gustav Leonhard's version of Bach's Matthew's Passion. The matter is that the Passion is sung in German and CD doesn´t have the lyrics with it so I can't understand anything.

Is there any site at the Internet where I can find the lyrics of this work (¿In German, in English, in Spanish?) Has any of you a CD with lyrics and could send me a scan of them?

By the way. I'm only an "amateur" on classical music so I would be very gratefull if you could comment me if this is a good version of Matthew's Passion.

Thank you very much for your help.

Rien Pranger wrote (September 22, 2000):

(To Jorge Cacho) Try this site: http://uofapsy.psych.ualberta.ca/cantatas/other.html

Jorge Cacho wrote (September 22, 2000):

(To Rien Pranger) Thanks for your link!! It's a very good site!!

Cory Hall wrote (October 19, 2000):

< Charles wrote: Very interesting. Would you care to predict the correct tempo for the opening chorus of Bach's Matthew Passion? >
I'm still working on the vocal works, so this is just a preliminary tempo, but as of now I think it should be 48 for the dotted quarter. Of course, to be sure, I have to first consider all other movements. I have the complete B-minor mass worked out though, which is easier than the Passions since there are no short chorales and recitatives. Bach mainly sought relationships between arias and choruses.

Charles Francis wrote (October 222, 2000):

< Cory Hall wrote: I'm still working on the vocal works, so this is just a preliminary tempo, but as of now I think it should be 48 for the dotted quarter. >
The table below gives the tempo for the opening movement of Bach's Matthew Passion for 28 different recordings. It was calculated based on the respective CD track lengths. The procedure was to use a sequencer (Logic Audio) with the MIDI-score loaded. For each CD, the tempo of the sequencer was adjusted so that the performance time indicated by the sequencer was equal to the track length of the CD.

The results are as follows (Year, Conductor, Tempo):

My hypothesis is that the defining historical event in the move towards a new performance paradigm (HIP) for the Matthew Passion, was the pioneering recording by Harnoncourt in 1970. As it turns out, if the recordings are grouped before and after 1970, one arrives at an astonishing result:

The mean tempo of the 15 performances after Harnoncourt (1970) is 72.7

The tempo of the Harnoncourt performance itself (1970) is 72.8

The mean tempo of the 12 performance before Harnoncourt (1970) is 61.0

Note the following interesting points:

1) The mean tempo increases by nearly 20% after 1970

2) The mean tempo after 1970 is within 0.1% of Harnoncourt (1970)

I think this phenomena can only be explained in terms of the enormous sociological impact of the recording industry and HIP-movement.

BTW, if you'd like some detailed input for your book, please get in touch.

Cory Hall wrote (October 22, 2000):

(To Charles Francis) Thanks Charles. That's really helpful. For some reason though I think that data is wrong. The reason is because I have Rilling's recording and he does it at about 48 to the dotted quarter (which equals 72 to the quarter), not 77 as your data says. Perhaps your data shows the quarter-note speed rather than the dotted quarter note speed. It's in 12/8 right?

Bob Sherman wrote (October 22, 2000):

< Charles Francis wrote: The table below gives the tempo for the opening movement of Bach's Matthew Passion for 28 different recordings. It was calculated based on the
respective CD track lengths. The procedure was to use a sequencer (Logic Audio) with the MIDI-score loaded. For each CD, the tempo of the sequencer was adjusted so that the performance time indicated by the sequencer was equal to the track length of the CD. >
Why didn't you include Richter?

Charles Francis wrote (October 23, 2000):

< Bob Sherman wrote: Why didn't you include Richter? >
I do have one other performance, the 1941 Günther Ramin version (he was leader of the Leipzig Thomanerchor during the war), but not the Richter. In fact, most of the track-duration data I needed was kindly provided by a gentleman on the rec.music.classical.recordings newsgroup who owned 23 (!) versions (Harry, eat your heart out!). Your CD player probably has a mode where it can display the remaining track time. If so, play the first track of the Richter and note the remaining track time when the music starts. It's best to avoid the track lengths published in the CD booklet as occasionally the opening track has a 3-second silent lead-in. Send me the track length for Richter and I will calculate the tempo.

Charles Francis wrote (October 23, 2000):

< Cory Hall wrote: Thanks Charles. That's really helpful. For some reason though I think that data is wrong. The reason is because I have Rilling's recording and he
does it at about 48 to the dotted quarter (which equals 72 to the quarter), not 77 as your data says. Perhaps your data shows the quarter-note speed rather than the dotted quarter note speed. It's in 12/8 right? >
Your guess is correct, the tempo data shows quarter-note speed. I reworked the two Rilling performances by hand and came up with the same result. I also rechecked the track lengths on my CD player. It seems the figures are correct, but maybe you have a Rilling performance I don't know about!

The opening movement of the Matthew Passion is indeed in 12/8 and it has 90 measures. The duration for the 1978 Rilling version is 7 minutes and 59 seconds (aiming for 8 minutes, perhaps?), while the duration for the 1994 Rilling is 6 minutes and 57 seconds. If you crunch the numbers, you'll arrive at the figures I gave.

Teri Noel Towe wrote (December 1, 2000):

(To Charles Francis) You may wish also to consider the implications of the 78 RPM recording conducted by Siegfried Ochs (1858-1929). The chorus is split over two sides of 1 12 inch 78 RPM disc, which means a total of appromately nine minutes of
available time for the performance. The performance lasts 5 minutes and 26 seconds. It is one of the most thrilling things I have ever heard. The urgence and tension are beyond belief.

Charles Francis wrote (December 3, 2000):

(To Teri Noel Towe) If you're saying the entire opening movement is played in 5 minutes and 26 seconds, then this is indeed astonishing. The fastest versions I know of are Max (6 minutes 41 seconds), Goodwin (6 minutes 48 seconds), Corboz (6 minutes 50), Gardiner (6 minutes 53 seconds) and Herreweghe (6 minutes 57 seconds).

The implications? Perhaps Ochs anticipated bundling with another movement?

Teri Noel Towe wrote (December 4, 2000):

(To Charles Francis) No, not at all.

I have examined this issue in a paper entitled "Present Day Misconceptions about Bach Performance Practice in the 19th Century - The Evidence of the Recordings", which is included in "A Bach Tribute - A Festschrift for William H. Scheide", which was published by Hinshaw and Barenreiter about ten years ago.

My recollection is that Scherchen also takes the opening chorus "extremely fast" by today's standards.

Personally, I find the effect thrilling, because the chorus takes on a relentless urgency and an intense foreboding that perfectly sets the mood for the narrative that unfolds inexorably and inevoitably ther.

Personally, I believe that the fast tempo has its origins at least in Mendelssohn-Bartholdy's practice, if not in Bach's himself, because both are known to have liked their tempos fast and their phrases long.

I thank you for calling my attention to the Max tempo. I must pick this recording up and have a listen to it, because I very much want to hear what the fast tempo is like in an allegedly "HIP" performance.

Matthew Passion

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (Decmber 6, 2000):

As a being brought up on the Klemperer recording (5 LPs!!!!) and one who agrees with the panoply of encomia presented about it as a reading although not a HIP reading, I would note that in Easter week 1971 I went to two performances (if I have not conflated the times in my memory). One was a Sat. night and repeat Easter Sunday afternoon performance of the Matthäus Passion as conducted from the harpsichord by Richard Westenberg at the Central Presbyterian Church in NYC. I went to both performances and it was the single outstanding performance of ANYTHING I have ever attended. Next week (as I recall) we had tickets to a series of the Matthäus Passion, the Johannes Passion, and the Messe in H moll conducted by Rilling at Carnegie Hall, NYC. I don't remember the order they were given in. We sat through the first one, walked out in the middle of the 2nd, and never returned for the third. This decision was reached by a glance from one to the other of the group of five friends who attended. It was the worst thing I have ever heard anytime of anything in my life. I indeed expected that Richard Westenberg would go on to become a widely recorded conductor. He did not. But the experience lives with me.

Cory Hall wrote (December 6, 2000):

< A reviewer wrote: Herreweghe most graciously remembers that all baroque music was some form of dance (try dancing to Klemperer's recording and you'll see what I mean) and that the rhythmic impulse in Bach's music is just as important as any harmony, melody or counterpoint. You will be hard pressed to find a more alive, soulful recording of Bach anywhere else. >
Yes, much of Bach's music is inspired by dances and consist of dance rhythms, but why must this imply quickness? Not all dances were fast, and in fact most Baroque dances are much slower than what modern HIP performers believe fits the description as being "dance like." For example, courantes are danced as slow or slower than sarabandes, meaning a movement in the style of a courante should be slow, not fast. Thus, "dance like" in this case is the opposite (slow) from what most people are conditioned into believing a dance should be (fast). Just because something resembles a dance does not necessarily mean it should be fast. This is one of the biggest
mistakes made by HIP performers.

Karl K. Otsuki wrote (December 6, 2000):

< Cory Hall wrote: ...in fact most Baroque dances are much slower than what modern HIP performers believe fits the description as being "dance like." For example, courantes are danced as slow or slower than sarabandes, meaning a movement in the style of a courante should be slow, not fast. >
Very interesting! Thanks for posting this message. Could I ask what sources say courantes are as slow or slower than sarabandes? That is very new to me; I'm stunned to know that any partita or suite recordings I own are based on a wrong understanding of dance tempi!

Cory Hall wrote (December 6, 2000):

(To Karl K. Otsuki) For example, the book Dance and the Music of J.S. Bach (Indiana Univ. Press) states this. I also know firsthand, since I used to collaborate with a Baroque and Renaissance dancer as an accompanist. Take the second and fourth partitas, for instance. The 3/2 meter in the courantes implies not a fast, but a slow tempo. These are not jolly, sprightly, and staccato pieces, as usually played, but expressive and legato at an "andante" speed.

Kirk McElhearn wrote (December 6, 2000):

(To Cory Hall) Cory, could you give us a brief overview of the rough tempi for the
different dance movements in suites? I am very interested...

Karl K. Orsuki wrote (December 6, 2000):

< Kirk McElhearn wrote: This comment, that was mentioned in one of the reviews you posted, is ridiculous. Saying that all baroque music was for dancing is just stupid. >
Well, "all Baroque music was some form of dance" doesn't quite mean "all Baroque music was for dancing." I don't agree with Herreweghe if he really thinks "all" Baroque music was some form of dance, but I really think a major number of Bach music, including sacred works, was some form of dance. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that people in church danced! I think it's really important to think about Bach's Affektenlehre (study of effective transmission of a "character" or "emotion" in music). Bach used those dance meters everywhere to transmit a certain character; for example, a concerto is not really music for dancing, but the 3^rd movement of A-minor violin concerto (BWV1041) is a gigue. It's hard to imagine that the audience of the Collegium Musicum danced in a coffee house listening to a concerto...

Bach uses some dance forms in the St. Matthew Passion: Siciliano, Menuet, Sarabande, etc.. Well, since there was a discussion on the tempi of the opening chorus from St. Matthew Passion, let me tell you what I feel about those tempi. I believe Herreweghe is well aware of the Affektenlehre and the roles of each dance form (transmitting a certain "Affekt"). The opening chorus is in 12/8 meter, so is aria "Mache dich." They are Siciliano-- don't ask me what "character" or "Affekt" Siciliano transmits, because I'm still trying to find out! But now you see why Herreweghe conducts the opening chorus in somewhat lively manner. Maybe he was trying to conduct it in Siciliano tempo! Well, there goes another discussion of how fast was Siciliano in Baroque period, but at least he is consistent with tempi through the work, isn't he? I don't have time to confirm it now, but my guess is that he conducts those Siciliano movements in about the same tempo. Now I'm questioning myself if "Erbarme dich" is Siciliano or not... He conducts this aria much slower than other 12/8 movements...

I used to love Richter's St. Matthew Passion (I still do) but now I really appreciate introspective approach to the work; I adore Suzuki/BCJ's recording which also has relatively faster opening chorus.

Cory Hall wrote (December 6, 2000):

< Karl K. Otsuki wrote: But now you see why Herreweghe conducts the opening chorus in somewhat lively manner. Maybe he was trying to conduct it in Siciliano
tempo! >
But the siciliano is by definition slow, thus contradicting Herreweghe's "fast" tempo. Once again, not all dance music is fast. Why has everyone been conditioned into believing all music in the style of a dance must be fast? Furthermore, "fast" by our standards is considerably faster than "fast" was to the average eighteenth-century listener. In general, our hi-tech digital society has been conditioned into extremely fast tempos, which are far from being "historically authentic" for Bach's music. The HIP tenet of speeding everything up in reaction against the "old fashioned" mainstream tempos has often done more harm than good. Yes, dance styles prevail in much of Bach's music, but automatically choosing fast tempos all the time is not the
solution, since our perception of "fast" is very biased.

Karl K. Otsuki wrote (December 6, 2000):

< Cory Hall wrote: But the siciliano is by definition slow, thus contradicting Herreweghe's "fast" tempo. Once again, not all dance music is fast. Why has everyone been conditioned into believing all music in the style of a dance must be fast? >
Thanks for the comment! Why have you been conditioned into believing if tempo is not slow then fast? I'm just saying that the tempo (I chose the word "lively" but this is not perfect description either) Herreweghe chose is based on his definition, and he is consistent about it. We have a lot of "definitions." Thanks again Cory!

Harry J. Steinman wrote (December 6, 2000):

(To Cory Hall) How do we know was 'fast' or 'slow' in Bach's day? I'm not a musician so perhaps I'm missing some basic knowledge that others might have. Still, how do we know the tempi that Big Daddy used?

Johan van Veen wrote (December 6, 2000):

There have been several messages regarding the tempo of the opening chorus of Bach's St Matthew Passion. It had led to some assumptions regarding the use of dance rhythms in sacred music, and especially in a work of grief like the SMP. I would like to make some general comments on this subject.

1) Dance rhythms are a very common phenomenon in the baroque period They are used in all kinds of music, and are not necessarily linked to music of joy or grief, sacred or secular music, vocal or instrumental music, solo or ensemble music.
2) Dances have often changed their character during history. For instance, the sarabande originally was a very exciting fast dance, once forbidden by the Church because of its supposed erotic character. But in the time of Bach it has become a rather slow court dance.
3) Dances in music were not immediately associated with actual dances. Dance rhythms and the original dances have grown apart. When Bach uses dance movements in his orchestral suites, nobody believes they were meant to be used as real dance music.
4) The phenomenon "dance" isn't exclusively linked with "joy".Otherwise no composer would be able to write dance rhythms in works in keys which - according to the baroque "Affektenlehre" - express grief, sorrow etc, like E major and f minor (according to Mattheson). Apart from that, since the middle ages there was a phenomenon, called the "danse macabre" (dance of death), in which Death was portrayed as a musician, dragging along people in his dances.
5) Dance rhythms were not incompatible with sacred music, because: a) dance rhythms were not exclusively associated with actual dances; b) there was no unbridgeable gap between "secular" and "sacred" music. Treating them as categories, divided by a fence, is anachronistic. When Bach composed instrumental music, he didn't see that as fundamentally different from composing liturgical music.

As far as modern interpretation is concerned:
- a dance rhythm has to be recongnizable as such; otherwise the composer wouldn't have used it
- dance rhythms don't imply a certain tempo; basically the Affekt as well as the context in which a certain piece of music appears are deciding which tempo should be taken (and there are other considerations as well, of course).

Nagamiya Tutomu (January 27, 2001):

In the Matthew Passion, the last word of Jesus is "Eli, Eli, lama asabthani?" according to the Luther Bible. But in every English Bible or Japanese Bible there are written "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?". Does someone know where this difference comes from?

Wimjan wrote (January 27, 2001):

(To Nagamiya Tutomu) Z. Philip Ambrose explains on his wonderful site "Texts of the Complete Vocal Works with English Translation and Commentary"
(http://www.uvm.edu/~classics/faculty/bach/):

<quote from http://www.uvm.edu/~classics/faculty/bach/BWV244.html>
"This reading [asabthani - WJ] is that of Luther's Bible and the Vulgate of Pope Sixtus V (1590). The usual reading of Greek and English versions is "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani."
</quote>

As a layman in this field, I find it not really strange that the transcription changes, since Hebrew doesn't write down vowels (afaik).

Nagamiya Tutomu (January 27, 2001):

(To Wimjan) Thank you Wimjam for your interesting suggestions.

Z. Philip Ambrose's site is one of my most favortite sites. Now I don't make out "the Vulgate of Pope Sixtus V (1590)". Are there various versions of Vulgata? Luther cannot have seen the version of 1590. If it has been always "asabthani" ever since St Jerome my question would be cleared away.

Wimjan wrote (January 27, 2001):

(To Nagamiya Tutomu) I'm afraid I cannot answer these questions, but I'm sure somebody else can (perhaps in another newsgroup, like lt.religion.christian.biblestudy
or soc.religion.christian.biblestudy).

I did find another web page though, which seems to shed some light on the different spelling of 'sbachthani'. Since I'm not sure you read German I'll put a quick & dirty translation of (part of) the paragraph labeled I:

<translation of http://www.come2god.de/liedehatgottverlassen.htm>

[...] The first verse [of psalm 22] reads in the Hebrew Bible: "Eli, Eli, lamah asabthani", which means "My God, why have you left me?". The Greek text in the mentioned psalm (after Nestle) quotes Jesus not in the Hebrew, but in the Aramaic language, which reads (transcribed from Greek letters): "Lama sabachthani". And both Matthew and Mark add to that: "Which means: why have you left me?". The evangelists differ in this, that Matthew uses the Hebrew transcription "Eli, Eli", whereas Mark keeps using the Aramaic "Eloi, Eloi". [...]

</translation>

So 'asabthani' seems to be transcribed from Hebrew, whereas 'sabachthani' comes from Aramaic. Which version is used in which Bible version I cannot tell you.

Nagamiya Tutomu (January 27, 2001):

(To Wimjan) You were kind enough to translate German for me; I can hardly read German. Thanks to you, I have learned more than I expected.

Ben Crick wrote (January 28, 2001):

(To Nagamiya Tutomu) Presumably Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 in Aramaic, because that would be more instantly recognised by his tormentors as the beginning of Psalm 22, the Psalm which prophesies the agonies of Crucifixion about 1,000 years beforehand. BTW, the last verse of Psalm 22 ends "he has done [it]" KiY `aSaH, or, as Jesus cried from the cross, "It is finished!" [TETELESTAI], John 19:30.

So JSB and Luther got it right!

Nagamiya Tutomu (January 28, 2001):

(To Ben Crick) Thank you Ben, for your contribution.

It is very interesting if John quotes the last line of Psalm 22 whereas Matthew and Mark quote the first line of it. And I think it is very probable. BTW, all three (and also Luke) quote Psalm 22:18 (dividing clothes by casting lots).

Riccardo Nughes wrote (March 31, 2001):

Here they are:
http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=1447232227/pagename=/RP/CDN/CLASS/comp_srch.html/SearchName=BACH%2C+JOHANN+SEBASTIAN/SearchGenre=Choral+Works/SearchPiece=31562/OList=4

Continue to Part 3

Matthäus-Passion BWV 244: Details
Complete Recordings: 1900-1949 | 1950-1959 | 1960-1969 | 1970-1979 | 1980-1989 | 1990-1999 | 2000-2009 | 2010-2019 | 2020-2029
Recordings of Individual Movements: 1900-1949 | 1950-1959 | 1960-1969 | 1970-1979 | 1980-1989 | 1990-1999 | 2000-2009 | 2010-2019 | 2020-2029
General Discussions: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6 | Part 7 | Part 8 | Part 9 | Part 10 | Part 11 | Part 12 | Part 13 | Part 14 | Part 15 | Part 16 | Part 17 | BWV 244a | BWV 244b
Systemetic Discussions: Part 1: Mvts. 1-8 | Part 2: Mvts. 9-20 | Part 3: Mvts. 21-29 | Part 4: Mvts. 30-40 | Part 5: Mvts. 41-50 | Part 6: Mvts. 51-57 | Part 7: Mvts. 58-63b | Part 8: Mvts. 63c-68 | Part 9: Role of the Evangelist
Individual Recordings: BWV 244 - L. Bernstein | BWV 244 - G.C. Biller | BWV 244 - F. Brüggen | BWV 244 - J. Butt | BWV 244 - R. Chailly | BWV 244 - S. Cleobury | BWV 244 - J. Daus | BWV 244 - D. Fasolis | BWV 244 - W. Furtwängler | BWV 244 - J.E. Gardiner | BWV 244 - W. Gönnenwein | BWV 244 - P. Goodwin | BWV 244 - E.z. Guttenberg | BWV 244 - N. Harnoncourt | BWV 244 - P. Herreweghe | BWV 244 - R. Jacques | BWV 244 - H.v. Karajan | BWV 244 - O. Klemperer | BWV 244 - T. Koopman | BWV 244 - S. Koussevitzky | BWV 244 - S. Kuijken | BWV 244 - F. Lehmann | BWV 244 - G. Leonhardt | BWV 244 - P.J. Leusink | BWV 244 - E.&R. Mauersberger | BWV 244 - H. Max | BWV 244 - P. McCreesh | BWV 244 - W. Mengelberg | BWV 244 - K. Münchinger | BWV 244 - R. Norrington | BWV 244 - G. Oberfrank | BWV 244 - S. Ozawa | BWV 244 - A. Parrott | BWV 244 - G. Ramin | BWV 244 - S. Rattle | BWV 244 - K. Richter | BWV 244 - H. Rilling | BWV 244 - H.J. Rotzsch | BWV 244 - H. Scherchen | BWV 244 - G. Solti | BWV 244 - C. Spering | BWV 244 - M. Suzuki | BWV 244 - J.v. Veldhoven | BWV 244 - B. Walter | BWV 244 - F. Werner | BWV 244 - M. Wöldike
Articles: Saint Matthew Passion, BWV 244 [T.N. Towe] | Two Easter St. Matthew Passions (Plus One) [U. Golomb] | St. Matthew Passion from Harnoncourt [D. Satz] | The Passion according to Saint Matthew BWV 244 [J. Rifkin] | The Relationship between BWV 244a (Trauermusik) and BWV 244b (SMP Frühfassung) [T. Braatz] | Matthäus-Passion BWV 244 - Early History (A Selective, Annotated Bibliography) [W. Hoffman] | Spiritual Sources of Bach's St. Matthew Passion [W. Hoffman] | Bach and the "Great Passion" [D.G. Lebut Jr.] | The Genesis of Bach's `Great Passion': 1724-29 [W. Hoffman] | Early Performances of Bach's SMP [T. Braatz]