Das Alt-Bachische Archiv

Thomas Rardleff wrote (December 30, 2002):
At the end of the year another treasure from the rediscoverded Ukrainian Sing-Akademie archive has been released. AFAIK, this is the first complete recording of Das Alt-Bachische Archiv; motets by Johann, Georg Christoph, Johann Christoph, Johann Michael and J.S. Bach. Sung by the madrigal-trained Cantus Cölln, directed by lutenist Konrad Junghänel, some of them accompanied by Concerto Palatino (= Bruce Dickey, Charles Toet a.o.) Some motets never heard before, and some already well-known from selected recordings ("The Bach Family" a.o. on Ricercar, Hänssler, Capriccio...)

The whole double disc is dramaturgically and musically well prepared, beautifully performed and recorded; good booklet essay only in German. Recommended to all Bach lovers and vocal music enthousiasts.

It is a release from the Austrian broadcast ORF, in their ORF Edition Alte Musik, but as a coproduction with Harmonia Mundi France, so it might be released once more in that program. Meanwhile it might hardly be found in stores outside of Austria, but can be ordered online: http://shop.orf.at/oe1/ , then click "Mehr Auswahl" 2x.

Finally, I´d like to thank all list members for their contributions. The great variety of all of your informations, opinions, recommendings (or not), and ideas have influenced my way of listening in a most positive way, and helped me enjoying - and I hope understanding - Bach´s (and other composer´s) music. I´m looking forward to further experience with all of you !
[snip]

Marten Breuer wrote (December 30, 2002):
[To Thomas Radleff] Thank you very much for this exciting piece of information! However, I would be curious to know the full track list, which unfortunately is not published at the orf-site. So, would you mind typing the list for me?

Many thanks in advance

Thomas Radleff wrote (December 30, 2002):
[To Marten Breuer] Here we are:

Das Alt-Bachische Archiv

Cantus Cölln, Concerto Palatino, Konrad Junghänel.
excellent soloists, among them Suasnne Rydén, Stephan Schreckenberger;
Friedemann Immer a.o., trumpets.
ORF Edition Alte Musik 2002
2 CDs 76:37 + 76:18

Johann Bach:
Unser Leben ist ein Schatten - motet
J.B.? / Jonas de Fletin ? :
Sei nun wieder zufrieden - motet
Georg Christoph Bach:
Siehe, wie fein und lieblich - cantata
Johann Christoph Bach:
Lieber Herr Gott, wecke uns auf - motet
Wie bist du denn, o Gott in Zorn... - lamento
Es erhub sich ein Streit - cantata (WOW!)
Unseres Herzens Freude - motet
Meine Freundin, Du ist schön - cantata
Herr, nun lässest du deinen Diener... - motet
Herr, wende dich... - cantata
Der Gerechte, ob er gleich... - motet
Mit Weinen hebt sichs an - aria
Ach, dass ich Wassers gnug hätte - lamento
Es ist nun aus mit meinem Leben - aria
Johann Michael Bach:
Die Furcht des Herren... - cantata
Ich weiß, dass mein Erlöser lebt - motet
Auf, lasset uns den Herrn loben - aria
Ach, wie sehnlich wart ich der Zeit - aria
Herr, wenn ich nur dich habe - motet
Nun hab ich überwunden - motet
Das Blut Jesu Christi - motet
Johann Sebastian Bach:
Ich lasse Dich nicht - motet BWV Anh. III 159
Anonymus:
Nun ist alles überwunden - aria
Weint nicht um meinen Tod - aria

Michael Carter wrote (December 31, 2002):
Those of you interested in Mr. Radleff's information on the two-CD set of cantatas, motets, et al by Bach's relatives will be pleased to know that Harmonia Mundi France will market the title in Europe; Harmonia Mundi USA will distribute the disc on this side of the pond.

There will be a bit of a wait here, however. According to my industry sources the CDs won't be available in the U.S. until July of 2003. Also, there is no word as to whether or not Harmonia Mundi will offer English translations of the now all-German annotations. My guess is they will, as that is their usual procedure.

I look forward to the release with much anticipation as I already own several similar collections on other labels.

Altbachisches Archiv

Peter Bright wrote (April 15, 2003):
I have just bought the following new 2 CD set:

Altbachisches Archiv / Cantus Cölln, Concerto Palatino / Konrad Junghanel (harmonia mundi)

Has anyone else here got this? This is the summary from the back of the disc:

"If Bach had not lovingly preserved the works of his forefathers, we would know almost nothing about them. His collection, known since the eighteenth century as the 'Altbachisches Archiv', was published for the first time in 1935. The original manuscripts, lost during the Second World War, were recently located in the Archives in Kiev. Here now is a recording of the complete collection."

Includes works by:

Johann Bach
Heinrich Bach
Johann Christoph Bach
Georg Christoph Bach
Johann Michael Bach
Johann Sebastian Bach

I'm about to open it up and listen to it. More soon...

Thomas Radleff wrote (April 16, 2003):
[To Peter Bright] Have you got the Austrian issue (ORF Edition Alte Musik) or already the expected Harmonia Mndi release? Actually, I find this is one of the most exciting recordings of vocal music ever, and AFAIK the first complete recording of Das Alt-Bachische Archiv. I think we´ve been talking about it last december, shortly after its release in Austria.

curious for you comments,

Kirk McElhearn wrote (April 16, 2003):
[To Thomas Radleff] Is this the same stuff that Goebel has been recording under the name "Bachiana"? Two discs so far...

Thomas Radleff wrote (April 16, 2003):
[To Kirk McElhearn] Don´t think so; the first of Goebel´s Bachianas has only instrumental/chamber works. Das Alt-Bachische Archiv contains only vocal works, mostly motets. Some of them are first recordings, others are already well-known, as they have been recorded before quite often; eg. one of my favourites, Johann Bach´s "Unser Leben ist ein Schatten", heard before from Herreweghe/Ricercar, Capella Fidicina/Capriccio, Rilling/Hänssler.

Johan van Veen wrote (April 16, 2003):
[To Thomas Radleff] And the second volume by Musica antiqua contains concertos by the sons of Bach. There is a third volume in preparation, which should contain vocal works. So maybe that recording will have some of the items also in the Cantus Cölln recording.

Peter Bright wrote (April 16, 2003):
[To Kirk McElhearn] Thomas is correct, this is restricted to vocal music. From the notes:

"...due to the collecting zeal of Johann Sebastian himself, whose music library preserved around twenty sacred vocal works by his forebears. Since the late eighteenth century the generally accepted designation for this collection of family heirlooms has been the 'Altbachisches Archiv' ('archive of the elder Bachs'), and it was under this name that it was published in two slim 'monumental' volumes in the Bach year of 1935" ... "In all the collection consists of around 200 sheets of small-format music paper, yellowing and brittle, and covered with elaborate, ornate characters – the musical legacy of Bach's ancestors."

There is a highly readable and informative essay by Peter Wollny and the packaging of the set is superbly done. I managed to leave it at work last night so have yet to listen to it in the quiet of my own house. What I have heard appears to continue the level of grace and poise so evident on their Actus Tragicus CD from a couple of years back. It has taken a little while to appear, though, having been recorded in February 2002 in Eglise St Osdag, Neustadt-Mandelsloh, Germany.

Peter Bright wrote (April 16, 2003):
[To Thomas Radleff] It is the Harmonia Mundi release (I believe it appeared in the UK for the first time on Monday), made in Germany. The catalogue no. is HMC 901783.84. The times for each disc are 76'39 and 76'21. I picked it up in a standard classicial music shop in Cambridge.

Thomas Radleff wrote (April 16, 2003):
Peter Bright wrote:
< It is the Harmonia Mundi release (I believe it appeared in the UK for the first time on Monday), made in Germany. The catalogue no. is HMC 901783.84. The times for each disc are 76'39 and 76'21. I picked it up in a standard classicial music shop in Cambridge. >
Exactly the same timings as the Austrian release (so I haven´t missed anything - whew!). And it seems the excellent description from Peter Wollny has been translated to English in the HM edition. To all vocal / sacred / baroque music aficionados: strictly recommended !

Marten Breuer wrote (April 16, 2003):
Thomas Radleff wrote:
<Some of them are first recordings, others are already well-known...>
In fact, most of them are contained on other recordings, see the following list.

For explanation:

BC = Brilliant Classics, Bach Family Motets, Timothy Brown

DGG = Deutsche Grammophon (Archiv), Die Familie Bach vor Johann Sebastian, Die Kantaten - Musica Antiqua Köln, Reinhard Goebel (no longer available)

RIC = Ricercar, Motetten der Bach Familie, Herreweghe/Nevel

Johann Bach:
Unser Leben ist ein Schatten - BC, RIC
Sei nun wieder zufrieden - RIC

Georg Christoph Bach:
Siehe, wie fein und lieblich - DGG

Johann Christoph Bach:
Lieber Herr Gott, wecke uns auf - BC, RIC
Wie bist du denn, o Gott in Zorn... - DGG
Es erhub sich ein Streit - DGG
Unseres Herzens Freude - RIC
Meine Freundin, Du ist schön - DGG
Herr, nun lässest du deinen Diener... - RIC
Herr, wende dich... - DGG
Der Gerechte, ob er gleich... - BC, RIC
Mit Weinen hebt sichs an - aria
Ach, dass ich Wassers gnug hätte - DGG

Es ist nun aus mit meinem Leben - BC

Johann Michael Bach:
Die Furcht des Herren... - DGG
Ich weiß, dass mein Erlöser lebt - RIC
Auf, lasset uns den Herrn loben - DGG
Ach, wie sehnlich wart ich der Zeit - DGG
Herr, wenn ich nur dich habe - RIC

Nun hab ich überwunden - BC
Das Blut Jesu Christi - RIC

Johann Sebastian Bach:
Ich lasse Dich nicht - BC, RIC

Anonymus:
Nun ist alles überwunden
Weint nicht um meinen Tod

Peter Bright wrote (April 16, 2003):
[To Marten Breuer] To be fair, this release does not claim to be the first recording of any of these individual pieces (at least after a quick scan of the notes). Perhaps it is the first time the complete Altbachisches Archive has been presented in a single set? Anyway I'm off for a few days - have a great long weekend everybody (if that's what you're having...). I'm up at 3am to catch a flight to see my sweetheart in Prague. Yippeeeeee!!!

Steven Guy wrote (April 16, 2003):
Marten Breuer wrote:
< Johann Michael Bach:
Die Furcht des Herren... - DGG
Ich weiß, dass mein Erlöser lebt - RIC
Auf, lasset uns den Herrn loben - DGG
Ach, wie sehnlich wart ich der Zeit - DGG
Herr, wenn ich nur dich habe - RIC
Nun hab ich überwunden - BC
Das Blut Jesu Christi – RIC >
If anyone would like a copy of the score for 'Das Blut Jesu Christi' in PDF / Sibelius / MIDI formats, let me know. I can send it to you off-list - in any or all of the aforementioned formats. I played my cornetto (in unison - 'colla parte' - with the soprano voice) in a performance of this in a concert in Melbourne (at All Saints' Church in the suburb of St. Kilda) on Good Friday in 1993. I made a Sibelius score of this piece earlier this year - I was feeling a little nostalgic.

I haven't heard the Ricercar recording of this piece.

Thomas Radleff wrote (April 16, 2003):
[To Maarten Breuer] Many thanks for your list of Alt-Bachisches stuff.

Many of these pieces are included in Helmuth Rilling´s 3-CD-set The Bach-Family, and four of them on the Capriccio disc with Capella Fidicinia / Hans Grüss, but certainly the Ricercar combination with Herreweghe and van Nevel is the better choice, and of course the new Junghänel. How about Goebel´s set? I´ve seen it in a local store a few days ago, so it could be a chance - any recommendation? Who are the singers?

In correction of my previous mail on this topic: Junghänel´s recording does not claim to be the first complete recording, but the first one based on the original scores which have been found a few years ago by Christoph Wolff in Kiew, among many other treasures from the Singakademie archive.

I love especially these song-of-song motets... well, spring has come at last.

Joost wrote (April 17, 2003):
Thomas Radleff wrote:
< How about Goebel´s set? I´ve seen it in a local store a few days ago, so it could be a chance - any recommendation? Who are the singers? >
This 1986 recording has always been one of my pet recordings. The singers are Maria Zedelius (s), Ulla Groenewold (a), David Cordier (ct), Paul Elliott & Hein Meens (t), Michael Schopper & Steven Varcoe (b). Amongst the instrumetalists we find Reinhard Goebel, Mary Utiger, Hajo Bäss, Phoebe Carrai, Konrad Junghänel (!), Andreas Staier, Friedemann Immer aMichael McCraw.

Marten Breuer wrote (April 17, 2003):
Thomas Radleff wrote:
< How about Goebel´s set? I´ve seen it in a local store a few days ago, so it could be a chance - any recommendation? >
Highly recommendable - if you can get it, do it! There are real gems on it!

Riccardo Nughes wrote (May 1, 2003):
< How about Goebel´s set? >
BTW, this set will be remastered and reissued in the Archiv Blue Serie (release date : september 2003, catalogue number 474 552-2 ). I saw stock copies of the original pressing for sale at a low price even here in Italy :)

Altbachisches Archiv recording

Kirk McElhearn wrote (September 8, 2003):
I've been listening to this disc on and off for the past month or so, trying to write a review of it. Is it just me, or is most of the music on this disc uninteresting? I'm having trouble getting through the disc - I find myself often just turning it off because so much of the music is, well, bad.

Peter Bright wrote (September 8, 2003):
[To Kirk McElhearn] I must admit that I didn't get this reaction to it at all. I haven't listened to it recently but always enjoy it when I do. I think the quality is variable but overall it is well played and recorded, and there are some real gems in there.

Johan van Veen wrote (September 8, 2003):
[To Kirk McElhearn] I strongly disagree. I have just borrowed it from our public library, and I find the music just fascinating. I knew a pretty large number of pieces already, so there were little surprises, but I love this music. In general the performance is great, although I have some minor reservations.

Kirk McElhearn wrote (September 8, 2003):
[To Johan van Veen] Performances are certainly impeccable, but the music just doesn't do it for me, with a few exceptions.

Bob Henderson wrote (September 8, 2003):
I thought it was just me. I have had this disc for several months now and I came to it with very high expectations. Great sound, excellent performances. But the music with a few exceptions, .....well, uninteresting. Perhaps we are spoiled.

Kirk McElhearn wrote (September 8, 2003):
[To Bob Henderson] Could be. At least I'm not the only one; thanks for confirming that my taste may not be so aberrant.

Charles Francis wrote (September 9, 2003):
[To Kirk McElhearn] Do you mean the Capriccio CD "Kantaten aus dem Alt-Bachischen Archiv" with Capella Fidicinia Leipzig, performed in 1984 under Hans Grüss? This CD contains two cantatas from Johann Michael Bach (1648-1694), one from Georg Christoph Bach (1642-1697) and a wedding cantata from Johann Christoph Bach (1642-1703). The cover of the source of this latter work was written in J.S. Bach's own hand (sadly, all sources of the Alt-Bachisches Archiv were lost during the 2^nd World War) and the work apparently left its influence on his Matthew Passion. Pleasant enough music, IMO, but lacking the contrapuntal sophistication of J.S.

Charles Francis wrote (September 9, 2003):
Just to follow-up: were the lost sources for the Alt-Bachisches Archiv part of the find recovered recently in Kiev?

Bob Henderson wrote (September 9, 2003):
This is Altbachishes Archiv, recently issued by Cantus Colln, harmonia mundi
901783.84.

Charles Francis wrote (September 9, 2003):
[To Bob Henderson] Thanks. It seems there's even another one on the way (from MAK): Amazon.de

Kirk McElhearn wrote (September 9, 2003):
[To Charles Francis] No, I mean the Cantus Colln set on Harmonia Mundi. Probably a lot of the same stuff on it.

Kirk McElhearn wrote (September 9, 2003):
Charles Francis wrote:
< Were the lost sources for the Alt-Bachisches Archiv part of the find recovered recently in Kiev? >
Yes.

Kirk McElhearn wrote (September 9, 2003):
Charles Francis wrote:
< It seems there's even another one on the way (from MAK) >
Interesting, it is probably the same or similar stuff. This follows their two Bachiana discs, which are quite good.

Riccardo Nughes wrote (September 9, 2003):
[To Kirk McElhearn] It is a reissue, I think these recordings are 20 years old.
We talked about this at: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/AltBachische-CantusColln.htm

Kirk McElhearn wrote (September 9, 2003):
[To Riccardo Nughes] Right. It's true the Blue series is a budget series.

Joost Jansen wrote (September 10, 2003):
[To Kirk McElhearn] I think it is merely a matter of taste and musical preferences. If most of your baroque music encounters up to now have been 18^th century, it is quite understandable you have some difficulties with 17^th century repertoire. Like many people I started listening to Bach, Vivaldi, Handel and Telemann. After that I jumped back a couple of centuries, and gradually found my way into the 17^th century. Take it from me, it may take some time to get used to the musical athmospheres of Monteverdi (the one with the seconda prattica), Schütz, and J.S. Bach's ancesters. Do give it some time, before you decide this 17^th century music is not your cup of tea. And try not to compare Gaultier and Froberger with Weiss and Rameau; you wouldn't compare Haydn and Mozart with Schumann and Brahms, would you?

Charles Francis wrote (September 10, 2003):
[To Riccardo Nughes] Thanks for the info - just cancelled my order!

I took a look at my dusty shelves of HIP recording, brushed off a few spiders webs and found "Die Familie Bach vor Johann Sebastian" performed by MAK from 1986. It contains three cantatas by Johann Michael Bach (1648-1694), two by Georg Christoph Bach (1642-1697) and one by Johann Christoph Bach (1642-1703). Actually, everything that is on Capella Fidicinia / Hans Grüss CD, with two bonus cantatas.

Kirk McElhearn wrote (September 10, 2003):
[To Joost Jansen] Good thought, but I have altogether about 2000 classical CDs, including many from the 17^th century. No, it's not about familiarity; I really found most of the music on that set to be boring.

Marten Breuer wrote (September 10, 2003):
[To Charles Francis] Yes, they were. If I am not mistaken, the Cantus Cölln recordings is based on these sources.

BTW, the MAK recording you referred to in your previous email is just a rerelease! For detailed info, see:
Deutsche Grammophon

Joost Jansen wrote (September 10, 2003):
[To Kirk McElhearn] One more surprising observation: the reason Johann Sebastian collected the pieces in the Altbachisches Archiv was that he wanted to preserve some fine examples from the compositions of his ancesters. It is quite funny that especially these pieces are amongst your least favourite 17^th century works. :)

Kirk McElhearn wrote (September 10, 2003):
[To Joost Jansen] Well, they are not the finest of the 17^th century, but the finest of his ancestors, right?

Altbachisches archiv [High-Baroque ML]

John Pike wrote (February 4, 2005):
I have been listening to Konrad Junghänel/Cantus Coelln recording of this on Harmonia Mundi. Make no mistake, this music by other members of the Bach family, and collected by JSB, includes some very fine music. No wonder Bach was so keen to collect it for posterity. I hate to think how much music by Bach's relatives has been tragically lost, just like that of JSB himself.

This is a very fine recording, with beautiful instrumental playing and top notch singing, as one would expect from this choir and their enlightened director, who have given us so many other fine recordings. I remember raving about their B minor Mass last year.

Peter Bright wrote (February 4, 2005):
[To John Pike] Many thanks for your thoughts on this set. I have had this for time and also enjoy it. I remember Kirk Mcelhearn (one of the cofounders of the the Bach Recordings List and a member of this one) giving this a poor write up and suggesting that the majority of the music was uninteresting. I also agree that some works (sorry I don't have it with me at the moment) weren't particularly involving, but overall, I'm definitely please that I bought it.

Lost Work: General Discussions | Das Alt-Bachische Archiv - Cantus Cölln

Konrad Junghänel: Short Biography | Cantus Cölln | Recordings of Vocal Works | Recordings of Instrumental Works
Individual Recordings: “Actus Tragicus” - by K. Junghänel & Cantus Cölln | Motets - K. Junghänel & Cantus Cölln | Das Alt-Bachische Archiv - K. Junghänel & Cantus Cölln | BWV 232 - K. Junghänel & Cantus Cölln