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Cantata BWV 215
Preise dein Glücke, gesegnetes Sachsen
Discussions - Part 3 |
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Continue from Part 2 |
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Discussions in the Week of September 22, 2013 |
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William L. Hoffman wrote (September 23, 2013):
Cantata 215: Intro. & Other Court Works
For the new Saxon Elector’s birthday, October 5, 1734, Bach had begun composing a new Cantata BWV 206 to a Picander dramma per musica text, with references to the War of Polish Secession against Augustus III earlier in the year that had prevented Augustus III from celebrating his birthday on August 3 1734. Instead, the visiting court received a triumphal evening serenade (BVW 215) with torchlight parade through Leipzig to the royal residence at Apel mansion on the Uhr marketplace. Bach on a commission from students at the University of Leipzig worked with Johann Christoph Clauder, a teacher at the University of Leipzig, and set about one-third of the text to new music, parodying the remainder. Eventually, Bach had Picander adjust the Cantata BWV 206 text for performances on the Elector’s birthday, October 7, 1736, and soon after finally received his commission as a Saxon Court composer (BCW Discussion, Week of October 6)
On October 5, 1734 Cantata BWV 215, “Preise deine Glücke, gesegnetes Sachsen“ (Praise Thy Good Fortune, Blessed Saxony) was presented for the birthday visit of Augusts III on the first anniversary of his election. The text by J.C. Clauder is a <dramma per musica> presented as an evening serenade music commissioned by Leipzig University students, following a torchlight parade.
Here are Christoph’s Wolff’s liner notes to the Koopman Erato Recording:
<"Preise dein Glucke, gesegnetes Sachsen", BWV 215. Dramma per musica, for the anniversary of the election of Augustus II as King of Poland, 5 October 1734, to a poem by Johann Christoph Clauder (presentation print Leipzig 1734). Performed by Bach's Collegium Musicum at the request of the students of the university. The per-formance on the Uhr market-place in Leipzig in front of the Apelsches Haus, the traditional residence of the royal family, was preceded by a torch-light procession in which 600 students - led by four Counts - took part. The chronicle reports: "Towards 9 o'clock in the evening the local students most humbly brought His Majesty an evening of music with trumpets and drums that Herr Capellmeister Joh. Sebastian Bach, Cant, at St. Thom., composed... subsequently his Royal Majesty, along with his royal consort and royal princes, did not leave the window as long as the music lasted, but listened intently, and his Majesty was heartily pleased." Bach had extremely little time to prepare the work, which had to be com-posed within three days. His autograph score and the original parts refer to the work as a "dramma per musica" and a "cantata gratulatoria". Appropriately for the specially festive occasion, the work is designed for double chorus; the eight-part choral writing finds a corresponding accompaniment in an exceptionally large orchestra. With occasional works for specific events of this kind, repeat performances could not be envisaged, and it was understandable that Bach should wish to sal-vage so valuable a composition. Just as the basis of the opening movement of BWV 214 is heard again in the introductory chorus of the Christmas Oratorio, so also is that of the first movement of BWV 215 to be found again in the Osanna of the B minor Mass> [http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Rec-BIG/Koopman-C04-2c[AM-3CD].pdf ], also found in Cantata BWV 215, BCW Details & Recordings (No. 5): http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV215.htm
A detailed study of Cantata BWV 215 is found at Wikipedia(on-line), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preise_dein_Glücke,_gesegnetes_Sachsen,_BWV_215 .
Text & Francis Browne English translation, http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/BWV215-Eng3.htm ;
Julian Mincham Commentary, http://www.jsbachcantatas.com/documents/chapter-96-bwv-215.htm ;
BCW Discussion 2 (Sept. 28, 2008): http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV215-D2.htm includes Aryeh Oron’s original Discussion No. 1 Introduction as well as
Three arias in Cantata 215 involve parodies: aria (No. 7) is parodied in the Christmas Oratorio, BWV 248V/5, and two arias (Nos. 3, 5) are parodies, originals unknown, perhaps from two salvaged works without published texts. One is an unknown serenade, Bach Compendium G-20, for Augustus Coronation, January 17, 1734. Another possible source is: BWV deest, no title, homage cantata, for August III Nameday (August 8, 1734) [BD II, No. 350 lists the Leipzig newspaper account of the court name day visit by the royal couple on August 3, 1734, where at 4 p.m. "the Bachian Collegium Musicum will humbly perform a solemn music, with trumpets and timpani, at Zimmerman's garden, in front of the Grimma gate." As the endnote in the NBR says (p. 164): "The identity of the work performed is not known."
Augustus II Nameday Cantata 1732
Beginning in 1732, Bach produced a series of some dozen mostly drammi per musica cantatas for Dresden Court visits on the occasion of name days, birthdays, and other events. He began with a celebratory work for the name day of Augustus II (August the Strong), August 3, 1732, BWV Anh. 11, Es lebe der König, der Vater im Lande (Long life to the King now, the nation's true father), dramma per musca text by Picander. Three characters: Landes-Liebe (Love of Country), Landes-Glückseligkeit (Good Fortune of Country), und Landes-Fürsehung (Providence of Country). The score is not extant, but the published text survives showing parodies of three movements. The work has 11 movements: da-capo chorus (repeated), four recitatives, five arias (three da capo, Nos. 3, 5, 9), and an arioso that is the centerpiece of palindrome mirror symmetrical form (ABCBA).
Only three numbers survive from BWV Anh. 11. The opening eight-part chorus, repeated at the end, originated as the opening chorus in Cantata BWV Anh. 9, “Entfernet Euch, ihr heitern Sterne” (Disperse yourselves, ye stars serenely) For August II’s Birthday, May 12, 1727. The chorus also opened Cantata BWV 215 for the visit of his son and heir, August III, on October 5, 1734, and in the late 1740s was parodied as the Osanna in the B-Minor Mass (BWV 232). The central gavotte-like echo aria in BWV Anh. 11, No. 7, “Frommes Schicksal, wenn ich frage” (Godly fortune, when I ask thee) became the echo aria with new text in the Christmas Oratorio 1735 New Years Cantata, BWV 248IV4(39), "Floßt, mein Heiland" (Doth, my Savior).” The dance-like closing aria did double duty later in Bach’s 1737 dramma per musica homage to a Saxon electoral official, BWV 30a), his last dramma per musica and a veritable pastiche from several Bach can, and then became sacred cantata BWV 30 for the feast of St. John the Baptist in 1738. Details of BWV Anh. 11, see http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWVAnh11.htm , with Philip Z. Ambrose’s English translation.
08/03/32 Anh. 11, Es lebe der König, August II Nameday (no visit), Picander text. Thomas Braatz article, “Bach’s Text and Music Business Connections,” says: “BD II, 313 Leipzig, July 30, 1732. Name Day Cantata BWV Anh. 11. The printing bill is issued by Breitkopf to Bach for a Drama: 1 sheet divided into 4, 300 printed, 12 on medium paper including the fee for censorship : 2 Taler 10 Groschen. [The footnote indicates that this is the first completely independent order that Bach placed with Breitkopf.]”
August III Nameday Cantata, 1733
Exactly a year later, on August 3, 1733, Bach produced another congratulatory Cantata, BWV Anh. 12, “Frohes Volk, vergnügte Sachsen” (Happy folk, contented Saxons) for the nameday of his son, Augustus III, who succeeded him as Elector/Prince of Saxony and Polish King at his death on February 1, 1733, followed by a mourning period lasting until July 1. Bach’s Kyrie-Gloria (Missa”) of the B-Minor Mass, BWV 232I may have been performed as part of special tribute to the new elector on April 21, at the Leipzig Service of Allegiance at the Nikolaus Church and possibly on July 27 at the Dresden Capelle when Bach sent his request to the new Elector for a royal court composer title.
Eight days after petitioning the court, on August 3, the designated royal nameday, with little notice Bach presented BWV Anh. 12, a virtual parody set to a Picander libretto (only the recitatives were newly composed) of BWV Anh. 18, “Froher Tag, verglangte Stunden” (Joyous day, desired hour) festive, academic cantata to a text of J. H. Winkler, celebrating the remodeling of the Thomas School and Bach’s residence (June 5, 1732). The works are virtually identical in form: opening and closing da-capo choruses, an unusual central chorus followed by an additional recitative in the later BWV Anh, 12, and four alternating recitatives and three da-capo arias. Cantata BWV Anh. 18 will be part of the BCW Discussion, Festive Music for the Leipzig University Celebrations (and Thomas School Celebrations), November 3.
The festive free da-capo opening chorus in BWV Anh. 18 and 12 was parodied and survives in the Ascension Oratorio of 1735, known as “Lobet Gott in seinem Reichen” (Praise God in his Kingdom), with three trumpets and drums. The second aria in both cantatas, BWV Anh. 18 and 12, may have been parodied as the bass aria with strings, “Domine Deus” (Lord God), in the later 1730s Missa; Kyrie-Gloria in F Major, BWV 233/3. There is speculation that the first aria in both cantatas may be a multiple parody involving a wedding cantata early (1727) version, BWV 195, then in the parody Cantata 30(a) for a 1737 homage drama per musica and a 1738 St. John’s Day concert where they survives as a Lombard-style free da-capo aria for alto, flute, and strings.
BWV Anh. 12, Frohes Volk, vergnügte Sachsen, August III nameday, Picander
http://www.uvm.edu/~classics/faculty/bach/IV.html; parodied arias (all da-capo) 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 from BWV Anh. 18, Froher Tag, verlangte Stunden (Thomas School reopening, academic occasion. Anh. 12, Frohes Volk, Braatz Article (Ibid.): “BD II, 333,334 Leipzig, August 2, 1733. Libretto for a Name Day cantata BWV Anh. 12. Breitkopf: 1 large sheet, 50 RPr. 150 DrPr including the censorship fee: 2 Taler Bach finally paid this bill on October 3, 1733.”
In all, Picander provided at least four Leipzig homage libretti for the Saxon Court: BWV 193a, Augustus II Nameday, August 3, 1727; BWV Anh. 11, Augustus II Nameday, August 3, 1732; Augustus III Nameday, August 3, 1733; and BWV 213, Prince’s Birthday, September 5, 1733. Also, Picander may have provided the parody libretti for BWV 205a, Augustus III Coronation observance, February 19, 1734, and BWV 207a for the Elector’s Nameday, August 3, ? 1735. Virtually all Bach’s Saxony homage cantatas were labeled “dramma per musica.” When presented outdoors in the evenings following torchlight parades, they were also called “serenades.”
Picander “made a specialty of this kind of <ad hoc> poetry, for which he and similar rhymesmiths were sneered at as ‘congratulators’ by poets like Gottsched, who considered themselves of a higher class,” says Christoph Wolff in <JSB: The Learned Musician> (New York: W.W. Norton & Co., 2000: 363). “The favorite format of Bach and his librettists was the <dramma per musica>, a term that also designated opera,” says Wolff (Ibid.). “And indeed, in both textual dramaturgy and musical design, there was no difference between the genres, the main distinction being that cantatas were shorter and unstaged. As in opera seria, the subjects and dramatis personae were ordinarily drawn from classical mythology . . . figurative myths . . . and . . . allegorical figures.”
The record shows that Bach had to be flexible and present music with little notice and/or substitute other music for the Saxon Court. On several occasions, he had only a few days to prepare music. For Augustus’ Nameday, August 3, 1733, Bach assembled a parody work, BWV Anh. 12 with only new recitatives. For the official coronation, January 17, 1734, Bach planned a parody (new recitatives only) of Cantata 205, but postponed the performance until Augustus’s coronation visit a month later, on February 19. Instead, apparently Bach presented an unknown serenade, Bach Compendium G-20 (BD II: 346).
A month earlier, on January 16, 1734, the Bach Documente (BD) II, shows a Leipzig entry for three documents, “BD II 345, 347, 348 for printing of libretto and title page of a dedicatory coronation cantata BWV 205a, Drama per Musica, and Bach’s bill from printer Breitkopf, printed in quarter-page format, 100 copies, 50 RPr. Censorship fee included. 1 Taler 20 Groschen. Because the exact date could not be determined in advance (for the performance, the title page simply left a space for the day and stated as follows: Leipzig, January -- 1734”
(see Thomas Braatz’ “Bach’s Text and Music Business Connections,” BCW, http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/BachBusiness.pdf and through http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BachCantatas/conversations/topics/37508 .)
Further details are found in “Birthday Music for the House of Saxony” (Chapter 4, pp. 42-46) of Marva J. Watson, “The Historical Figures of the Birthday Cantatas of Johann Sebastian Bach” (Master’s Thesis), 2010; BCW Articles, http://bach-cantatas.com/Articles/Historical-Figures-Watson.pdf ; also found on-line at BCW Articles, http://bach-cantatas.com/Articles/, scroll down to “The Historical Figures of the Birthday Cantatas of JohannSebastian Bach.”
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Next Week’s BCW Discussion: parody Cantata BWV 207a, “Auf, schmetternde Töne der muntern Trompeten” (Up, pealing sounds of lively trumpets) for the Elector’s Nameday, August 3, ? 1735; other lost music for the Dresden Court in the later 1730s, and Picander as parodist. |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (September 23, 2013):
William L. Hoffman wrote:
< The chronicle reports: "Towards 9 o'clock in the evening the local students most humbly brought His Majesty an evening of music with trumpets and drums that Herr Capellmeister Joh. Sebastian Bach, Cant, at St. Thom., composed... subsequently his Royal Majesty, along with his royal consort and royal princes, did not leave the window as long as the music lasted, but listened intently, and his Majesty was heartily pleased." >
When the Royal family was in Leipzig, they attended services in the Catholic Chapel Royal maintained in the Pleissenburg Castle, presumably the same chapel that Martin Luther preached in in 1519. Do the chroniclers mention anything about the music? The smaller orchestra required in some of Bach's Missae might have suited the needs of this chapel on occasions when royalty was in town. Were there resident musicians with reposnsibility for regular services? |
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William L. Hoffman wrote (September 24, 2013):
Cantata 215: The Pleissenburg Catholic Chapel Royal in Leipzig
[To Douglas Cowling] I have information on the resident of Pleissenburg Castle, Count Joachim Friedrich von Flemming, in PACZKOWSKI, SZYMON. Bach and the Story of an "Aria Tempo di Polonaise" for Joachim Friedrich Flemming, BACH Vol. XXXVIII/2 (2007), 64-98.
Re. Catholic music performed there in Bach's time, I'm still digging. Documentation shows that Bach performed three profane cantatas there and I will have more information on these during by the BCW Weekly Discussion, Cantata 210(a), November 24. Meanwhile, I will contact Paczkowski by email or Facebook to see if he can help answer your question. I think Peter Smaill attended the recent Bach UK Network Conference in Warsaw and he may have some sources.
Serendipitously, we still have two more BCW discussions on the Masses
Oct 13, 2013, BWV 236, Missa Brevis in G major; and
Oct 20, 2013 and BWV 237-242, 5 Sanctus & Christe eleison.
Also, I can try to reach Robin Leaver by email although he is very busy. |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (September 24, 2013):
William L. Hoffman wrote:
< I have information on the resident of Pleissenburg Castle, Count Joachim Friedrich von Flemming, in PACZKOWSKI, SZYMON. Bach and the Story of an "Aria Tempo di Polonaise" for Joachim Friedrich Flemming, BACH Vol. XXXVIII/2 (2007), 64-98. Re. Catholic music performed there in Bach's time, I'm still digging. Documentation shows that Bach performed three profane cantatas there and I will have more information on these during by the BCW Weekly Discussion, Cantata 210(a), November 24. >
I am always intrigued by the way Protestant Saxony had to deal with the conversion of the Elector to Catholicism to secure the crown of Poland. The conversion wasn't just a personal change of belief. It required the acquisition of buildings, clergy, art and music so that the Catholic rite was fully performed in a royal manner. Stauffer's book on the Mass in B Minor is fascinating because it indicates that musicians were brought in wholesale from Italy and that the scale of the new Catholic infrastructure was monumentally royal. At the same time, not all members of the royal family converted, and they remained patrons of the Lutheran liturgy in Dresden. The Frauenkirche and Hofkirche symbolized the confessional dichotomy in the kingdom
The Catholic king had to conform publically to the Catholic rite which meant that he and his immediate family were canonically unable to enter any of the Lutheran churches when he visited Leipzig. Nor could courtiers and officials who had to be Catholic. Hence the need for a Catholic chapel in Leipzig, a proposal which must have horrified the city's Lutheran citizens. If it was a chapel inside the castle ,the public scandal would have been minimized because it was not open to the ordinary people.
The interesting question is how substantial the liturgy was. Was it a small-scale oratory in which a company of priests merely said the daily mass and office? Or did it have a musical body attached which sang at least the plainchant of the liturgy? Was the chapel personnel augmented with singers and instrumentalists on major feasts, or when court officials or royalty were in residence?
And the real question: was Bach's growing interest in the Roman rite in the 1730's and 40's inspired in part by the musical needs of the Leipzig Chapel Royal? I;m not suggesting that there are missing settings of "Salve Regina" by Bach or that the Mass in B Minor was performed there, but Bach's acquisition of masses by other composers and his own Missae would have been useful for musicians sent over from Dresden to maintain the king's Catholic footprint in Leipzig. |
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William L. Hoffman wrote (September 25, 2013):
[To Douglas Cowling] Another fascinating account is George Buelow's <Music and Society: The Late Baroque Era, From the 1680s to the 1740s, especially the chapters: Buelow's "Dresden in the Age of Absolutism" and Stauffer's "Leipzig: A Cosmopolitan Trade Center" (Englewood Cliffs NJ: Prentice Hall, 1994).
As for Bach's Catholicity, there could be several major, positive factors intertwined with his life in Leipzig in the last two decades: perhaps he was becoming a closet Catholic like Shakespeare may have been, Bach saw the Dresden Court as a musical gold mine and a great opportunity, and son Friedemann was the organist at the Sophienkirchke and Dad certainly promoted him. |
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Douglas Cowling wrote (September 25, 2013):
William L. Hoffman wrote:
< As for Bach's Catholicity, there could be several major, positive factors intertwined with his life in Leipzig in the last two decades: perhaps he was becoming a closet Catholic like Shakespeare may have been, Bach saw the Dresden Court as a musical gold mine and a great opportunity, and son Friedemann was the organist at the Sophienkirchke and Dad certainly promoted him. >
It's idle to speculate if Bach, like his sovereign, was willing to convert to Catholicism in order to secure a court position in Dresden, but there are a couple of interesting parallels. His son, Johann Christian, converted to Catholicism around 1760 in order to become organist at Milan Cathedral. Handel, as a Lutheran, received commissions to write Catholic music in Rome. This appears to have been tolerated for several years. However, at some point, his future seems to have been predicated on his conversion which he apparently declined and left Italy. It's hard to judge whether this was a matter of conscience, for he became a conforming Anglican in London, a decision which may have been required in order to write his great compositions for the Chapel Royal.
If the Mass in B Minor is any evidence, it appears that Bach, as a Lutheran, was permitted to be an occasional composer to the court in Dresden, but a position as Kappelmeister may have required conversion. His missae and arrangements of the masses of other composers could have been used in Dresden where the 'pastiche mass' was common. Were they also used in the Catholic Chapel Royal in the Pleissenburg Castle? Who were Bach's Catholic contacts at the court? |
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William L. Hoffman wrote (September 25, 2013):
[Continue of his intro messagfe above]
ADDENDUM
The tradition of catholic Saxon Court visits during the Leipzig Spring and Fall Fair at the market place, both lasting three weeks, was first observed with music during the reign of Augustus the Strong. Bach as Leipzig music director responded with appropriate homage cantatas call<drammi per musica>. The record shows that Augustus celebrated his birthday on May 12 and his nameday on October 3. Bach’s first extant composition for the Elector, Cantata BWV Anh. 9, “Entfernet Euch, ihr heitern Sterne” (Disperse yourselves, ye stars serenely), was presented on May 12, 1727.
Leipzig University students commissioned an evening serenade performed outdoors after a festive student one-hour torchlight parade, beginning at 8 p.m. The parade was reviewed at the dominant Renaissance town hall with commercial arcades and tower, fronting the market lace, and concluded with a performance of the serenade at the Dietrich Apel baroque mansion, the tallest building along a row of mansions to the right of the town hall. Merchant Apel’s four-and-a-half story building was the official court residence where, from its windows, the royal visitors heard serenades conducted by Bach and his predecessor, Johann Kuhnau [source, George B. Stauffer, “Leipzig, a Cosmopolitan trade Center,” in <Music and Society, The Late Baroque Era, From the 1680s to 1740 (Englewood Cliffs NJ: Prentice Hall, 1994: 254-295)].
The Leipzig fairs were established in the 1497 edict of Catholic Hapsburg Emperor Maximilian I to be conducted beginning on the Third Sunday after Easter (Jubilate) and on the Feast of St. Michael on September 29. In 1727, the fair began on May 4 and the festivities were held on Monday, May 12. Special note was made in the libretto of Cantata BWV Anh. 9 of Count Joachim Friedrich von Flemming, the appointed Leipzig governor as the court’s “most trusted” who had been present at this “mighty feast one year ago” in 1726. (That year the Elector’s birthday had fallen exactly on Jubilate Sunday when Bach probably had presented festive Cantata BWV 146 with its opening two movements a sinfonia and chorus, borrowed from the Clavier Concerto No. 1 in D Minor, BWV 1052.)
In 1724, Saxon court adviser and eventual leading Bach Leipzig patron Flemming had assumed his position and moved into the Pleissenburg castle governor’s residence not far from the Thomas Church. On July 31, 1724, Flemming had assumed his official duties with a <dramma per musica> to a Picander libretto, composer unknown [source, Szymon Paczkowski, “Bach and the Story of an ‘Aria Tempo di Polonaise’ for Joachim Friedrich Flemming, BACH* Vol. XXXVIII/2 (2007), 64]. Picander also wrote the text to a solo Evening Music for Flemming on January 1, 1725. Although both originally were attributed to Johann Gottlieb Görner, organist at the progressive St. Paul University Church, Bach scholars have developed a still-unsubstantiated hypothesis that Bach was the composer. Beginning in 1726, three Bach Leipzig birthday serenades pay homage to Flemming, BWV 249b, BWV 210a, and BWV Anh. 10.
On the Elector’s nameday, August 3, 1727, Bach honored Augustus II with Cantata BWV 193a, “Ihr Häuser des Himmels, ihr Scheinenden Lichter” (Ye Shining Heaven, Ye Shining Lights). It probably was held at the Zimmerman coffee gardens next to the Grimma Gate.
Exactly five year later, August 3, 1732, Bach presented his last third and last documented homage cantata to Augustus II, BWV Anh. 11, “Es lebe der König, der Vater im Lande” (Long life to the King now, the nation's true father), <dramma per musica> text by Picander. It was presented outdoors in front of the royal residence. The opening eight-part chorus, repeated at the end, originated as the opening chorus in Cantata BWV Anh. 9, “Entfernet Euch, ihr heitern Sterne” (Disperse yourselves, ye stars serenely) For August II’s Birthday, May 12, 1727. The chorus also opened serenade Cantata BWV 215 for the visit of his son and heir, August III, on October 5, 1734, and in the late 1740s was parodied as the Osanna in the B-Minor Mass (BWV 232).
Those outdoor performances before the king at the royal residence included Cantata BWV Anh. 9, BWV Anh. 11, and BWV 215 (all with the same opening eight-part chorus) and BWV Anh. 13 in 1738. Cantatas BWV Anh. 9 and BWV 215 are serenades performed after torchlight parades at the Leipzig market place. Cantata BWV 215 was presented on October 5, 1734, during the Fall Fair. Bach had originally intended to present Cantata BWV 206 on his October 3 birthday at Zimmerman’s but apparently on October 2, the Elector’s family paid an unexpected visit and a congratulatory serenade on the first anniversary of his election was put together hastily with a Leipzig University students commissioned and torchlight parade.
Bach’s last “original” work, Cantata BWV Anh. 13, a serenade to a text of Johann Christoph Gottsched, leading poet and Leipzig University professor, was presented on Monday, April 28, 1738, during the Easter Fair that began the previous day, Jubilate Sunday. A Leipzig University student commission for the king’s visit and betrothal of Princes Amalia, it was presented at 9 p.m. in front of the royal residence in torchlight but without the preceding one-hour parade, as was Cantata BWV Anh. 11 of August 3, 1732. No music survives from Cantata BWV Anh. 13, which will be part of the BCW Weekly Discussion, October 6, featuring Cantata BWV 206. |
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Continue of this part of the discussion, see: Bach Tour - Places associated with Baach - Discussion Part 2 |
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