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Cantata BWV 62
Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland [II]
Discussions - Part 4 |
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Continue from Part 3 |
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Discussions in the Week of November 19, 2006 [Continue] |
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Stephen Benson wrote (November 26, 2006):
BWV 62 ----contrasting characters--response
Julian Mincham wrote:
< I return to the context of my posting which, it seems to me that Mr Benson has missed or chosen to ignore. >
Guilty as charged. At this point, I'm not sure whether the first or second suggested cause was at the root of my response. It might be that there were things I wanted to say so I just ignored the context and plunged on heedlessly, and then again, maybe I just totally missed the context altogether. More likely it was a combination of the two, my determination to say what I had to say clouding my critical judgment. For whatever reason I flubbed it, and I humbly apologize.
< It may be that what you hear is exactly what Bach wanted you to hear, no more and no less---we shall never know. It may also be that those with a more subtle instinct may hear something more complex--and we don't know if Bach would have intended that either. But, as I have said, it appears that some people do detect these complexities which is where the discussion began. >
Ouch! However, I don't think I ever said that I couldn't hear other characteristics in the music nor did I challenge the possibility of alternative readings. (Oops! I did say just that, didn't I? [From 11/22 — "I, personally, continue to hear in this movement nothing more than pure and unadulterated joy."] I guess I'm forced to concede that what I first considered a cheap shot was neither unjustified nor undeserved.)
If you would be so kind as to give me an opportunity to extricate myself from the hole I have dug for myself — the phrase "nothing more" really is a killer, isn't it? — I would like to say that my clumsily worded assertion does not at all accurately represent my thinking on the matter. Probably the simplest and most direct way to correct that distortion would be to have added the qualifying phrase, "When I listen to the Gardiner... [5]"
I was not, in fact, attracted to the Gardiner interpretation [5] because I could not hear the "complexities" of which you speak. I was attracted to the Gardiner recording because, and I quote from my November 21 post, it displays "an incisive energy and an irresistible and infectious buoyancy" and "it brings me great joy and makes me feel good". Maybe at some point in the future, I will decide this performance is only a cheap thrill and I will put it aside. I doubt it. I believe it is one perfectly valid, and extremely rewarding, reading of the score. But so is the Herreweghe [6], and I will be returning to that often, as well. They both provide their own distinctive kind of satisfaction. Our listening choices are dictated by what we want to hear at the moment.
When one does compare Gardiner [5] to Herreweghe [6] (and I'm arbitrarily limiting my comparison to those two recordings since they present such a clearcut opposition of styles), substantive differences are clear, differences that can be traced to the balance, or imbalance, you described between forceful energy and what you called "wistfulness". The respective aesthetic choices of these two conductors result in diametrically opposed listening experiences — two almost entirely different pieces of music. And it is fascinating that the same score can generate that kind of diversity!
Those aesthetic choices do raise a question about the nature of the "complexity" to which you refer. I assume (and, yes, I realize that making assumptions of any sort on this list is a risky business!) that Gardiner [5] and Herreweghe [6] made conscious decisions how to treat the first two measures of the opening chorus. Let us assume, once again, that Gardiner, or any other conductor opting for this interpretative style, decided to utilize tempo and articulation to complement and support the energy of the following idea. And let us assume as well, for purposes of discussion, that Herreweghe and like- minded conductors decided to utilize a different tempo and articulation to emphasize the contrast between the two ideas. They both looked at the same motif and made decisions to treat it in different ways. Is complementarity, which by its very nature frequently comes across as "simpler", inherently any less complex than contrast, or is it just different means to a different end?
Again, I apologize for my previous obtuseness. |
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Stephen Benson wrote (November 26, 2006):
Formatting issues resulted in some impenetrable syntax in my previous post on this thread. Dashes simply failed to appear in several places. The only solution seems to be to use multiple hyphens.Please note the following corrections:
(1) A dash should have followed the phrase "From 11/22..."
(2) The phrase "the phrase 'nothing more' is really a killer isn't it?" should have been set off by dashes
(3) The second sentence in the second paragraph from the end should have read: "The respective aesthetic choices of these two conductors result in diametrically opposed listening experiences -- two almost entirely different pieces of music."
My apologies, once again. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (November 26, 2006):
Stephen Benson wrote:
< I was attracted to the Gardiner recording [5] because, and I quote from my November 21 post, it displays "an incisive energy and an irresistible and infectious buoyancy" and "it brings me great joy and makes me feel good". Maybe at some point in the future, I will decide this performance is only a cheap thrill and I will put it aside. I doubt it. >
Compliments on the rare, gentlemanly post! I also doubt you will put aside the Gardiner [5]. I have not heard this particular one (BWV 62), but the few others that I have heard convince me I am eventually going to need the whole series. Don't tell my wife yet. |
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Alain Bruguières wrote (November 27, 2006):
I've just read the analysis of the 4th fugue of the WTC on Tim Smith's website: http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/wtc/i04.html#movie and he remarks that the theme of the fugue derives from 'Nun komm der Heiden Heiland'. So I haven't been the first one to suggest the connection!
I hope in time we will be able to sort out the X-motif issue so that we can decide whether its significance as a symbol in Bach's works reaches the same level of certainty as ascending or descending motions... |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (November 27, 2006):
Alain Bruguières wrote:
< I hope in time we will be able to sort out the X-motif issue so that we can decide whether its significance as a symbol in Bach's works reaches the same level of certainty as ascending or descending motions... >
Yeah, me too! Glad we got there. Almost as much fun as the <frog stoup>. Apologies to the rest of BCML, inside joke between me and Alain.
Actually, we did a bit of that on-list, maybe it can be tracked? Geez, I hope not. As I recall, M. Joly took a bit of offense over the misunderstanding, but we sorted that out as well.
Bonsoir, mon ami (good evening, my friend)! |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (November 27, 2006):
X-motif [was Re: Introduction to BWV 62 - 4th fugue of the WTC]
Continued from [BWV 159 concert], and
Alain Bruguières wrote:
<< I hope in time we will be able to sort out the X-motif issue so that we can decide whether its significance as a symbol in Bach's works reaches the same level of certainty as ascending or descending motions... >>
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< Yeah, me too! Glad we got there. >
BWV 159, it turns out, is an opportunity to delve into this topic, as soon as the Grad Student turns up. Don't count on Ulysses.
I had a look at the P&V score on BCW last night when I got home, as I heard the Kreuz theme in thetext, loud and clear.
A quick look. There is a single Kreuz in BWV 159/1, in the B arioso, no turn anywhere in sight.
In BWV 159/2 there is a repeated text Am Kreuz will ich dich noch umfangen (I will still embrace You on the Cross [tr. Dellal]) in the A voice. No turn on Kreuz, but a stretched turn on will ich dich noch. Two times.
So a total of three (!) Kreuz in Mvt 1 and 2. Two with a turn, in the A voice, one without, in the B.
Here comes some unsupported, but not totally wild conjecture:
The two occurrences in the A voice, with turn, represent the Father and Geist, still in Heaven. The single occurrence in the B voice, without turn represents the Son, preparing his Cross. The astute reader will notice how conveniently this agrees with the standard correlation of A=Geist, B=Jesus, etc.
In BWV 159/1&2, I can quickly spot six or more turn figures not associated with Kreuz. Exactly how many depends on exactly how much stretch is acceptable between a turn and a circulatio.
That is enough for tonight. I think we all agree this is worth pursuing. I think you can see that, despite my puckish sense of humor, I am interested. So interested, I insist we get the basics straight before wandering down some cup and cross strewn dead end.
And this is not a joke. So interested, I think it is a project worthy of a graduate student in search of a degree.
You may have noticed Chris Rowson's post, re the flute theme we have alluded to many times over the past few months. Turns out it was such a good idea, someone was already doing it.
I meant to put this at the beginning. Actually, I guess I did, I put it in the subject line. I support the X-motif terminology. I suggest we make that standard, unless there is something out there already, which is appropriate.
Next, start to work on agreed definitions of circulatio and turn. |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (November 27, 2006):
Pal Domokos wrote:
< I listened to the opening chorus of BWV 62 with Leusink [7] again and you're right, sometimes Buwalda dominates the scene. On the other hand, his voice doesn't irritate me, and he certainly can sing (he sings the choral in BWV 13 nicely). >
It is good to see a new voice on the recording comment threads, especially one who doesn't start out hating Buwalda. He doesn't irritate me very often, either. But not never.
< I also categorized the opening chorus from BWV 62 as being joyous. Do you think it might scare him? >
If it doesn't scare you, why should it scare him? I guess that is a little naive, and early childhood educators will jump all over me.
How about this. Remember back to your earliest memory. Do you think it would have scared you then?
I just wrote at some length on a live performance of BWV 159, which has some scary moments, what with carrying your own cross to your crucifixion, and stuff. If that isn't scary, what is? There was an infant in a tote bag (or whatever you call those things, it has been a long time for me) at the concert. He looked fine. No screaming, etc.
My opinion? When in doubt, go for it! On the other hand, look where that attitude got me. Writing notes on a computer.
I was so distracted by the concert, the evolving X-motif thread, and other stuff, that I hardly noticed who said what about the recordings. I was just happy to see that it was getting done, and I pretty much agreed with
everything I read..
I did notice Suzuki [11] absent, I believe. My advice is brief, and I think I already said it briefly somewhere back there. If full price CDs are on you menu, get this one. The SACD sound is bright and detailed, the couplings are convenient. If you have heard Robin Blaze, you will want it for that reason alone. If you haven't yet heard Robin Blaze, this is as good a place to start as any.
On to X-mas! |
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Julian Mincham wrote (November 27, 2006):
BWV 62 ----contrasting characters--again
[To Stephen Benson] a fulsome apology received in the same spirit in which it was offered.
In reflection, your first posting may have done me a favour in that it pointed out an issue of possible confusion. I certainly did not want to give the impression that one MUST hear what I suggest is there in the music. On the contrary, my approach is to suggest that we might try to articulate what we hear in the first instance and then try to determine the technical ways in which the composer achieved such effects. Each person will do this in their own way. My comments, related to the movement from which Ed raised his original question were intended only as personal examples of what I heard myself and from which I considered Bach's intentions might have been.
And of course your later posting makes an excellent point in that the performer/director's approach to the piece may be very different and can be a strong determining factor in what we take from the music itself. It is, of course the nature of interpretation However, It reminds me of a little trick I have often played on first year undergraduate music students (often a rather conservative bunch with preconceptions that really do need to be challenged)
I would set them an exercis eof musical criticism in which they were to hear 2 performances (from record) and write down all the differences in the two interpretations they perceived. I then played two versions of the same Baroque piece--one a 1950s slow, bombastic, heavy approach--big string groups, no harpsichord and turgig rhythms and articulations. The second was a much more bouyant recording by someone like Roy Goodman and the Brandenburg Consort. I simply muddied the waters a little by starting each performance at a different place in the score.
Amazingly (and remember that these were music students not members of Joe public) there were always several of them who did not realise that they were listening to the same piece of music so much did the vastly different interpretations alter their perception of it! A good, example I think, of what you expressed in your posting.
Which is also why it is good that a number of colleagues on list clearly manage to hear various performances of the cantatas thereby not getting stuck in a groove. I probably spend as much time reading the scores as listening to performances which also helps in maintaining a perspective. |
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Pal Domokos wrote (November 28, 2006):
[To Ed Myskowski] Thanks for all the info and advice, Ed. I'll leave BWV 62/1 on the list for my little nephew.
I read your report on the performance of BWV 159. It took me some time to get used to Frank Kelly's voice but I like it now. In fact, the more I listen to Rifkin's recordings the more I like them. I don't know what this means.
On Suzuki [11]: I have a couple of CD's from him and I love them all. Blaze is indeed a very good counter-tenor. At the moment, I'm listening to his new CD with Carolyn Sampson, singing duets from Handel oratorios. Very nicely, of course. I can't help feeling though that his technique and timbre suit Handel's/Purcell's music more than Bach's. But it may be a question of language: he sounds more convincing when singing in English. (I have the same feeling about Chance.)
Anyway, in January I'll hear Blaze live (singing Handel - he knows something). |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (November 28, 2006):
Pal Domokos wrote:
< I read your report on the performance of BWV 159. It took me some time to get used to Frank Kelly's voice but I like it now. In fact, the more I listen to Rifkin's recordings the more I like them. I don't know what this means. >
Maybe it means that this music is as great as anything ever written, all of the recordings are done respectfully by professional musicians, and the more you listen the more you appreciate that? Especially Rifkin, who was trying to demonstrate new thinking, not always welcome. Just a thought. The Rifkin I ha, a 2 CD set incl BWV 80 sounds like a resonant ambiance (or engineering ?), which to my ears defeats the OVPP just a bit. But I haven't listened to it for a while, in the interim my ears have been adjusting to Suzuki [11] and Gardiner [5], for ambient resonance. I posted a note months ago on my first hearing of a Suzuki, including Blaze. Let me know if you are interested and I will recover the reference. But I pretty much said Blaze can sing as good as any girl (or lady) and the sound was reverberant. I think Blaze is at his best in the three <Achs> of BWV 116, which I mentioned at that point. I referred to the text in the BWV 159 concert report because of my chat with Pamela Dellal, but didn't cross reference the Blaze performance. Thanks for creating the opportunity
I can't be objective about Kelley. I know him from live performances, more Mozart operas than Bach, but much more of both than recordings. When I hear a recording, I now it is him and I relate to the live experience.
There are lots of words in these pages about what is wrong with the recordings. it does a disservice to the music and the performers. It is good to see a new, positive voice. If you keep writing, I will keep answering!
< On Suzuki [11]: I have a couple of CD's from him and I love them all. Blaze is indeed a very good counter-tenor.
Anyway, in January I'll hear Blaze live (singing Handel - he knows something). >
Same thought as above, doubled. I expect to try to write a few words about the live performances I get to, just to support the concept of live music. Send comments on any concerts you get to. Maybe other people who have the opportunity will get to hear them, and do the same. BCML could use more of that!
As to the baby, most of my friends are musicians, and most of them are younger than me. I don't know what that means. I hope it means that I am on a track to go into geezerhood gracefully. Anyway, many of them have had babies in the period that I have known them. Some of those babies are no teenagers. Every one of thievery one!--considered music in the womb important. I don't recall anyone worrying too much about the details. I do recall comments like: it (before the days of ultra-sound) really likes Beethoven and Schoenberg.
I had a pet bird for many years. The bird needed music at all times, or it would screech. Just about any music was OK as an alternative to silence but he (?) [long aside, sexing birds is not easy, but he didn't lay eggs] was able to communicate that his special preferences were Mozart and Charlie (Bird) Parker. Go figure. He died. I miss him, but i don't miss cleaning up bird poop. Probably more than you wanted to know. |
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Pal Domokos wrote (December 3, 2006):
BWV 62 recordings
[To Ed Myskowski] Sorry for being slow to answer. I don't get to the list every day (or practice the Chaconne on a six-string banjo, as a matter of fact.)
You may be right about Rifkin, Ed. I think respectful is a very accurate expression to describe the way he approaches Bach's music. It's surely not OVPP itself that I like in his recordings: attempts by others don't always impress me.
You don't have Rifkin's other 2-CD set that contains BWV 106, BWV 131, BWV 99, and the bass cantatas? You simply have to have that! The BWV 131 is probably the best I've heard so far, Opalach sings BWV 82 beautifully, 106 is also great.
I'll look up your first post about Suzuki and Blaze [11]. I think Blaze is very good but I don't think he's as good as any female singer. There are some that are just better than him.
I don't have BWV 116 with Blaze, for me the aria he sings best is the opening one in BWV 83 (also with Suzuki). I listened to it a couple of days ago.
About concerts: I don't promise I'll report on every concert I attend. The latest one, some two weeks ago, wasn't that great. After a Torelli concerto and BWV 51, I had to sit through some so-called modern music in order to hear two Handel arias at the end. Next week I'm going to hear BWV 106 and BWV 151 with (among others) Mária Zádori: now, I'm looking forward to that!
On being positive: I think it's quite all right if people tell what they don't like about a recording. A negative comment is exactly as informative as a positive one. In either case, you have to know if the critic's taste is similar to yours, otherwise their opinions are no use to you.
I'm sorry for your bird - I love animals myself.s wrote: |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (December 3, 2006):
Pal Domokos wrote:
< You don't have Rifkin's other 2-CD set that contains BWV 106, BWV 131, BWV 99, and the bass cantatas? You simply have to have that! >
I read this before dinner, and relayed it to my wife over dinner. I cannot print her response. She is a feisty mix of African, Brit and Latin influences, originally from the Islands (Carib, not Hawaii). See a forthcoming OT Jump Up post (perhaps the final one) for more detail, if you are interested.
< I'll look up your first post about Suzuki and Blaze [11]. I think Blaze is very good but I don't think he's as good as any female singer. There are some that are just better than him. >
I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I would be curious as to your choices. One of mine would be Hilde Rössl-Majdan (HRM!), but they are so different comparisons are almost pointless. Equally good, as my current quote of my earlier statement suggests. BTW, I cannot recover the original post quickly, but I recall writing <These guy [Blaze and Charles Brett, I believe] can sing with any of the girls (or mladies)>, or some such. Anyway, close enough for government work (a luscious Americanism).
< I'm sorry for your bird - I love animals myself. >
This is one of the kindest remarks we have seen on BCML in my tenure (approaching a year). It is indeed a pleasure to have you around! Aloha kaua (an approximation for welcome, to an individual). |
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Pal Domokos wrote (December 7, 2006):
Pal Domokos wrote:
<< You don't have Rifkin's other 2-CD set that contains BWV 106, BWV 131, BWV 99, and the bass cantatas? You simply have to have that! >>
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< I read this before dinner, and relayed it to my wife over dinner. I cannot print her response. She is a feisty mix of African, Brit and Latin influences, originally from the Islands (Carib, not Hawaii). See a forthcoming OT Jump Up post (perhaps the final one) for more detail, if you are interested. >
CD's make great Christmas presents: if you're not allowed to buy the Rifkin for yourself, give it to her!
<< I'll look up your first post about Suzuki and Blaze [11]. I think Blaze is very good but I don't think he's as good as any female singer. There are some that are just better than him. >>
< I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I would be curious as to your choices. One of mine would be Hilde Rössl-Majdan (HRM!), but they are so different comparisons are almost pointless. Equally good, as my current quote of my earlier statement suggests. BTW, I cannot recover the original post quickly, but I recall writing <These guy [Blaze and Charles Brett, I believe] can sing with any of the girls (or mladies)>, or some such. Anyway, close enough for government work (a luscious Americanism). >
I only have the Trauerode (BWV 198) (Scherchen) with Rössel-Majdan. I liked her tone, I remember that. I think Marga Höffgen, Anna Re, Júlia Hamari were all better than Blaze. They sang with more emotion. But there are current-day altos as well, say, Ingeborg Danz, who sings very expressively with the right conductor. Nevertheless, I think Blaze is first-class. Have you checked him in BWV 83 with Suzuki? Or in the Easter Oratorio with McCreesh?
<< I'm sorry for your bird - I love animals myself. >>
< This is one of the kindest remarks we have seen on BCML in my tenure (approaching a year). It is indeed a pleasure to have you around! Aloha kaua (an approximation for welcome, to an individual). >
Check the website my email originates from and you'll understand. |
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Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (December 7, 2006):
Pal Domokos wrote:
< I only have the Trauerode (BWV 198) (Scherchen) with Rössel-Majdan. I liked her tone, I remember that. I think Marga Höffgen, Anna Reynolds, Júlia Hamari were all better than Blaze. They sang with more emotion. But there are current-day altos as well, say, Ingeborg Danz, who sings very expressively with the right conductor. Nevertheless, I think Blaze is first-class. Have you checked him in BWV 83 with Suzuki? Or in the Easter Oratorio with McCreesh? >
Rössl-Majdan (with or without the -e- before the -l-, very complicated problem) spoils one for any other alto and that's that. I was lucky enough to basically live with her Bach cantatas and MP as my sole recordings of those things which she did record (all except two of the three Gielen cantatas and the "Es ist vollbracht" from the JP (BWV 245) which I never had until recent uploads from someone on operashare).
I find the McCreesh Easter-Oratorio and the companion Magnificat the most boring Bach I have ever heard. This is not bc. of Mr. Blaze but because of the conductor. I do not analyze this. It is my reaction.
I have come to treasure all the more the last two named works with R-M conducted by Prohaska. |
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Pal Domokos wrote (December 8, 2006):
Yoel L. Arbeitman wrote:
< Rössl-Majdan (with or without the -e- before the -l-, very complicated problem) spoils one for any other alto and that's that. I was lucky enough to basically live with her Bach cantatas and MP as my sole recordings of those things which she did record (all except two of the three Gielen cantatas and the "Es ist vollbracht" from the JP (BWV 245) which I never had until recent uploads from someone on operashare). >
It's always hard for me to decide what to listen to on the bus to and from work. Tomorrow it'll be the Trauerode (BWV 198): I'll check Frau Rössel-Majdan.
< I find the McCreesh Easter-Oratorio and the companion Magnificat the most boring Bach I have ever heard. This is not bc. of Mr. Blaze but because of the conductor. I do not analyze this. It is my reaction. >
It'd be an interesting competition: "My most boring recordings". I'd have a few candidates as well.
< I have come to treasure all the more the last two named works with R-M conducted by Prohaska. >
I have nothing from Prohaska. Oh well, you can't have everything. Or can you? |
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Ed Myskowski wrote (December 8, 2006):
Pal Domokos wrote:
< Tomorrow it'll be the Trauerode (BWV 198): I'll check Frau Rössel-Majdan. >
Yoël and I don't converse very often but we have a special point of agreement: you will not regret any time you spend listening to HRM!
< I have nothing from Prohaska. Oh well, you can't have everything. Or can you? >
No, you can't have everything, but you can enjoy the effort fo trying to. Or you can relax and enjoy what you have. Or seek a middle ground. |
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Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (December 9, 2006):
Pal Domokos wrote:
< I have nothing from Prohaska. Oh well, you can't have everything. Or can you? >
If you have a high speed connection, anything other than dial-up, DSL or cable(, etc.?), I have uploaded almost all the Rössl-Majdan/Prohaska and the one Rössl-Majdan/Wöldike cantatas CDs to my own small list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OLWT/
They are all out of print and unlikely to be in print. One or two (I forget) are re-created as CD-Rs by Arkivmusic.com. but I prefer to give them away on the internet.
All in all, as I recall there are five Prohaska Bach CDs with HRM (and with others, whatever was the diskmate in each case).
I will eventually upload the missing one and make the Gielen/HRM one available too. Life is too short to play games with record companies deleting such items or never digitizing them at all as in the case of Gielen. |
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Pal Domokos wrote (December 9, 2006):
[To Ed Myskowski] I listened to the Trauerode today, paying special attention to the alto aria. I find HRM's singing expressive, her voice warm and pleasant. Apart from this recording, I only have this aria with Brett and Buwalda, I prefer HRM's performance to theirs. I'd love to hear Ingeborg Danz sing it though.
Yes, I now I can't have everything. But I'm a Bach addict. I simply can't have enough of him. |
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Pal Domokos wrote (December 9, 2006):
[To Yoël L. Arbeitman] Thanks, I appreciate your offer. I just find a used Prohaska CD at amazon.de. I'll order it and see how much I like it. |
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Raymond Joly wrote (December 9, 2006):
[To Pal Domokos] I am pleased you listened to Her Royal Majesty and deplore you are so busy that you cannot type 16 letters. |
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Continue on Part 5 |
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