Trumpets in Bach’s Vocal Works
Discussions - Part 9

Continue from Part 8

Orchestral Posture

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 13, 2012):
A spirited performance of the Lully "Te Deum" by Les Arts Florissants. Note that the orchestra has adopted 18^th century convention and is standing -- except for the cellos!
YouTube

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 13, 2012):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< A spirited performance of the Lully "Te Deum" by Les Arts Florissants. Note that the orchestra has adopted 18^th century convention and is standing -- except for the cellos! >
That poor baroque trumpet player is holding his instrument with one hand, and is barely able to reach the center of it. Since people in the 18^th century were shorter and (smaller), you do wonder how they managed something like that trumpet.

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 13, 2012):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< That poor baroque trumpet player is holding his instrument with one hand, and is barely able to reach the center of it. >
I love the hand on the pelvis -- putting the the hips back in HIP!

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 13, 2012):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< I love the hand on the pelvis -- putting the the hips back in HIP! >
I'm guessing that it keeps him balanced and from falling over.

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 13, 2012):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< I'm guessing that it keeps him balanced and from falling over. >
Yeah, sure! You both can count on me to find an opprtune moment to remind you this exchange.

Charles Francis wrote (May 13, 2012):
Douglas Cowling, in response to his 1^st message above] My impression is that upright baroque music performances are becoming more or less normative in my part of the world (central Europe); it is also common now to eliminate the conductor role. This is also true for choral works: for example La Petite Bande perform a minimalist Matthew Passion without conductor, while various Swiss groups perform cantatas in that manner.

Here is a vertical performance of the Brandenburg 4 fugue under a young Nikolaus Harnoncourt (Austria) YouTube

while this example with Roy Goodman (England) is a presumed early example without conductor: YouTube

likewsie this performance with James Gallway and Andrea Griminelli: YouTube

A more recent example from Southern Germany: YouTube

In what is now the Köthen) spiegelsaal, Bach would have presumably faced the assembled aristocratic guests, as they watched, ate, drank, smoked and conversed. He might have stood and played viola as indicated by CPE or sat at the harpsichord for Brandenburg 5.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 13, 2012):
Charles Francis wrote:
< My impression is that upright baroque music performances are becoming more or less normative in my part of the world (central > Europe); it is also common now to eliminate the conductor role. This is also true for choral works: for example La Petite Bande perform a minimalist Matthew Passion without conductor, while various Swiss groups perform cantatas in that manner. >
That's very true: I saw a video of Claudio Abaddo conducting the Brandenburgs (it's dated 2010) and it just looked really silly seeing someone waving a stick for what is essentially a small ensemble, although they did beef up the strings for that performance. Or another video of Gustavo Dudamel "conducting" a few brass players at a concert who were playing Gabrieli canzonas. The fact this looks odd now is because we're so used to seeing conductor-less ensembles.

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 13, 2012):
Charles Francis wrote:
< It is also common now to eliminate the conductor role. >
It's fascinating to observe conducting style in period orchestras. At least one prominent HIP conductor uses an elongated baton and thrashes around like a madman. Another has been watching too many videos of Lenny Bernstein and indulges in gymnastics that would make Martha Graham blush.

I was interested to see that Fabio Luisi, the all-but-anointed director of the Metropolitan Opera, conducted "Don Giovanni" from the harpsichord with an economy of gesture that was breathtaking.

The notion that all Baroque music should be conductorless is not a historically-defensible position. Remember Lully used to lead with a long staff which he accidentally drove through his foot and consequently died of gangrene (Is this a Baroque Urban Legend?)

Julian Mincham wrote (May 13, 2012):
[To Douglas Cowling] All of which reminds me of the late great Hans Keller (his critical work on string chamber music is still worth reading). Some years ago I attended one of his lectures in which he brought together a bunch of professions which, he claimed had much in common with the medieval Witch Prickers. These were men who claimed they could prick the skin of a woman and deduce, by the way she reacted, whether she was a witch or not.

These people were highly paid and highly esteemed members of society. They did a job which did not need doing and made matters worse than they would have been had they not been involved!

Needless to say, conductors were at the top of Keller's list of professions that shared these qualities!

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 13, 2012):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Remember Lully used to lead with a long staff which he accidentally drove through his foot and consequently died of gangrene (Is this a Baroque Urban Legend?) >
It's true. He refused to have the infected toe amputated, and subsequently went into septic shock. But his isn't the most bizzare and senseless composer's death. Two others come to mind:

Anton Fils (September 22, 1733 - March 14, 1760 ) was a cellist and composer in Mannheim had the bizarre habit of eating live spiders (he said he enjoyed them because they tasted like fresh strawberries). His last choice was a bad one, and he died from the spider bite. I'm not sure if Fils was bitten on the hand while picking it up, or on the lips, but either way, spider bite deaths are horrible (cf. Brown recluse spiders). Fils was 26.

The other bizzare death was the composer Johann Schobert (1720 - 28 August 1767) a German transplant composer who worked in Paris. A lot of his symphonies were pawned off as music by Haydn. Schobert enjoyed hiking outside Paris and collecting wild mushrooms, and eating them later. After one such mushroom gathering jaunt, he made a pot of soup with them for a gathering of friends and family, insisting they were safe. Well, he was wrong and killed himself, his wife, one of his children, a servant, and four guests. Austrian Emperor Charles VI died in 1740 from mushroom poisoning too, and his death was the start of a long war over the succession of his daughter Maria Theresa.

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 13, 2012):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< Anton Fils (September 22, 1733 - March 14, 1760 ) was a cellist and said he enjoyed them because they tasted like fresh strawberries). His last choice was a bad one, and he died from the spider bite. >
This is way too Baron Munchhausen-esque for me!

I think it's a Baroque Urban Legend -- like the violist in the microwave.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 13, 2012):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< I think it's a Baroque Urban Legend -- like the violist in the microwave. >
Doesn't Hertz me ;)

Claudio Di Veroli wrote (May 14, 2012):
Orchestral Posture-trumpet

<< A spirited performance of the Lully "Te Deum" by Les Arts Florissants. Note that the orchestra has adopted 18^th century convention and is standing -- except for the cellos! >>
< That poor baroque trumpet player is holding his instrument with one hand, and is barely able to reach the center of it. Since people in the 18^th century were shorter and (smaller), you do wonder how they managed something like that trumpet. >
A few comments:

(1) I believe that the trumpeter is Mad, the first one in modern times to be able to play professionaly even the most involved of Bach's parts, playing the natural trumpet as played in Bach's time, with one hand and no holes, yet reaching a very satisfactory intonation. This has granted Madeuf a place in the modern history of the early brass revival.

(2) AFAIK Madeuf is not a very tall (large) man, thus similar in size to a 18C player.

(3) All natural trumpets (except for the very rare colied ones) were built in the elongated shape made popular by Nüremberg makers. We also know about playing posture from treatises and paintings. However, there may have been slight variations. Note also that the trumpet is held in place not only by the hand, but also by the friction caused by the external part of the player's lips.

Richard Raymond wrote (May 14, 2012):
YouTube

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 15, 2012):
Claudio Di Veroli wrote:
< (1) I believe that the trumpeter is Madeuf, the first one in modern times to be able to play professionaly even the most involved of Bach's parts, playing the natural trumpet as played in Bach's time, with one hand and no holes, yet reaching a very satisfactory intonation. This has granted Madeuf a place in the modern history of the early brass revival. >
Thanks for the informative detail.

This emphasizes the ongoing (perhaps since the 18th C.? perhaps longer?) question, as to what is authentic performance practice for *old* music.

A pal of mine likes to play jazz on modern (valved) trumpet, frequently one-handed. I never thought about the question of equalizing lip-pressure for intonation. I will seek out an opinion. I have never noticed him to play hand-on-hip, so I doubt if physical balance is an issue with modern (coiled, compact) instruments, but perhaps that was part of the incentive for coiling, to begin with?

He also sings a bit, including a cover of the *old* Chet Baker hit, *I Fall in Love Too Easily*. How HIP is that?

Stephen Benson wrote (May 15, 2012):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
< I never thought about the question of equalizing lip-pressure for intonation. I will seek out an opinion. I have never noticed him to play hand-on-hip, so I doubt if physical balance is an issue with modern (coiled, compact) instruments, but perhaps that was part of the incentive for coiling, to begin with? >
Speaking from my experience as a trumpet player, I can't imagine "physical balance" would really be an issue. Sometimes playing in a higher register means one has to "push" a little harder, but it really is the lip, not the body, that makes the difference. Of course, some trumpet players extend their range a lot more easily than others.

On the other hand, I can't remember ever trying to play one-handed..

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 15, 2012):
Stephen Benson wrote:
< Sometimes playing in a higher register means one has to "push" a little harder, but it really is >the lip, not the body, that makes the difference. Of course, some trumpet players extend their >range a lot more easily than others.
On the other hand, I can't remember ever trying to play one-handed... >
I thought it a bit unusual the first time I saw it, but I was a bit too timid to ask, especially since the results were especially good. Thinking back, I believe it was the same performance where I first heard the cover of the Chet Baker tune, with vocal.

By now, we are all friends, so I will just ask at the next opportunity. An interesting detail, thanks for contributing.

Claudio Di Veroli wrote (May 15, 2012):
[Ti Richard Raymond] Thanks Richard!

To those of us that have played baroque brass (I played for some years the natural horn) what Madeuf does, though not always 100% impeccable (which would be impossible) is nothing short of miraculous.

Most importantly, Bach trumpeters did not have node holes, thus Bach (and his audiences) expected exactly the mistuning and the risks a "holeless" natural trumpet produces.

Lately the Baroque trumpet players are commenting that Madeuf's playing is, by far, the nearest thing we have to how Reiche must have played: not surprisingly, it blends very well with the other players and singers.

George Bromley wrote (May 15, 2012):
[To Claudio Di Veroli] which notes would require the use of "a hole".

Claudio Di Veroli wrote (May 15, 2012):
[To Geirge Bromley] A full analysis is found in the literature (e.g. http://temper.braybaroque.ie/ , Ch.18 on intonation for the natural brass)

In a nutshell, trumpets with holes normally are fitted with three holes:

- two of them are node holes: essentially they block some partials, thus making it safer to play (more difficult to get wrong notes) especially at speed. They can also be used to facilitate trills, though most Baroque trumpeters avoid this as it produces a different effect from the true lip trill.

- the main hole (sometimes a double hole played by two fingers simultaneously) has a different function: when opened, it transposes up a fourth. Its main function is to fix the main intonation issues: written F, F# and A. Let me explain.

WITHOUT holes, the 11th partial (h11) is the best approximation for BOTH F and F#: thus the instrument is built to favour a middle-of-the-way tuning. The player uses throat and lips to "lip down" for F and "lip up" for F#: these notes become difficult to play and especially to produce them in anything like an acceptable tuning. G# is almost never scored for, but A is, and frequently, and is best played by h13, which produces inevitably too low a note: difficult to lip up as it is quite high in the range. Having to lip up or down significantly (approx. 30 Cents) for those notes, the playing is inevitably imperfect, but is what Bach and his audiences expected.

WITH holes, the 11th partial (h11) is used only for F#, and the instrument is built to approximate a good tuning for this note, which therefore becomes safer and easier to play in tune. In order to play F instead, the player opens the main hole and produces the 8th partial (h8) which normally would yield C, but with open hole jumps up a fourth to a perfectly-tuned F. As for A, instead of using mistuned h13, the trumpeter opens the hole and plays h10 which normally yields E, but with open hole jumps up to a perfectly tuned A. The lip up/down effort required is less than 10 Cents, thus a good trumpeter can produce a virtually faultless (but anachronistic) intonation.

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 16, 2012):
Claudio Di Veroli wrote:
< Bach trumpeters did not have node holes >
That must sound very rude in German.

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 16, 2012):
Claudio Di Veroli wrote:
< Having to lip up or down significantly (approx. 30 Cents) for those notes, the playing is inevitably imperfect, but is what Bach and his audiences expected. >
A key(!) point. Expectation is critical for both composers and audiences. Did Bach or his audiences expect equal temperament (or any other) precision?

For that matter, do 21st C. audiences expect, or perceive, equal temperament precision?

There is a wonderful recorded interview with jazz great Milt Jackson, which I heard many years ago. The interviewer asks if *perfect pitch* enhances his enjoyment of music.

Response: <Not really. Sometnmes I will be listening with friends, and everyone else is enjoying the music. All I can notice is that the turntable is a bit off.> (end quote)

Trumpets without holes

Charles Francis wrote (September 25, 2012):
The "baroque" trumpets used by period musicians typically have anachronistic venting holes to temper the instrument towards modern practice and taste.

Here's a solo demo of a hole-free trumpet: YouTube: Händel - Water Music practice on nat

And in various performances: YouTube: Weihnachtsoratorium - Christmas Oratorio

Playing quickly seems to require a lot of skill.

Charles Francis wrote (September 25, 2012):
It seems Yahoo has problems with longer URL's, so here's a shorter link: http://tinyurl.com/d73436y

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (September 25, 2012):
Charles Francis wrote:
< The "baroque" trumpets used by period musicians typically have anachronistic venting holes to temper the instrument towards modern practice and taste. >
I have heard it explained because the tubing walls is so precise in the modern replicas, the makers had to use these venting holes. I know the gentleman in the video is not a professional, but that's really awful.

Natural Trumpets

Continue of discussion from: Joshua Rifkin - General Discussions [Performers of Vocal Works]

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 20, 2013):
Claudio Di Veroli wrote:
< Only ONE natural trumpeter today, Madeuf, is playing with no holes, and the results are quite shocking, much different from which we are used to hear]. >
Here's a breath-taking performance of Campra's "Exaudiat Te Dominus": YouTube

I love the 17th century French pronunciation of the Latin: "Domi-NYOOSE"

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (April 20, 2013):
[To Douglas Cowling] I wished the baroque timpani players would be more jazzy in their drumming, we know from descriptions of the period, they were quite show-offish rolling the sticks in their hands in the air (like modern rock band drummers) and sometimes even had short ribbons on the ends. Spectacle was EVERYTHING to the performance.

Claudio Di Veroli wrote (April 20, 2013):
[To Douglas Cowling] Thanks Douglas,

Impeccable "holeless" trumpeting!

Paul Beckman wrote (April 20, 2013):
[To Douglas Cowling] I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that Suzuki's dudes played natural horns sans holes. I saw them do the Mass in Bmin, and that's what it looked like to me. Also, see this link: YouTube

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning. At any rate, I was amazed at both the exertion and execution of the performers.

Claudio Di Veroli wrote (April 21, 2013):
[To Paul Beckman] Indeed there are a FEW players with holeless horns, but in Gardiner's Christmas Oratorio DVD (German tour 2005): Amazon.co.uk
there is no doubt whatsoever: there are takes showing the horns VERY close, their fingers up and down, even the holes can be seen!

Sometimes, when there are no holes, things can be actually worse: until 10-20 years ago all nat horn players employed the hand-in-bell technique, which was not in use during JSB life, produces the wrong sound and requires using the wrong instrument, Classical model with the modern-like large bell.

PS: I played the natural horn c.1985-2000.

Edward H. Tarr, trumpet musicologist and performer has passed away

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (March 24, 2013):
I was very saddened to learn from a friend that Edward H. Tarr passed away. He was 84. He was extremely friendly and helpful to me on a few research projects. You may remember Tarr's recordings on Baroque trumpet (my first introduction to him was via the Nonesuch budget label). He was an extensive researcher in trumpet music and published many first editions of music, along with a new German edition of the Elector's mandate on trumpet players in Saxony, 1736. Which I have attached here for your general interest.
Further mandate against the unauthorized playing of trumpets (Dresden, 1736): introduction and translation, by Edward H. Tarr [PFF]

Continue on Part 10

Brass Instruments in Bach's Vocal Works: Brass Instruments | Corno da caccia | Horns
Trumpets: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6 | Part 7 | Part 8 | Part 9 | Baroque D Trumpet Resonances | Bach's Compositions using trumpets or horns with timpani