Trumpets in Bach’s Vocal Works
Discussions - Part 10

Continue from Part 9

Question about Bach-period trumpets

Sneffels wrote (June 13, 2023):
Are there any surviving examples of 17th-18th Century trumpets with finger- or vent-holes?

Recently I saw a claim that there are many such vented instruments surviving from Bach's time or earlier, and their use was common; but I can't find any evidence to support that claim.

All sources I've found say that in Bach's time all trumpets were natural trumpets (no vents). A few:

https://etd.ohiolink.edu/apexprod/rws_etd/send_file/send?accession=akron1350316386&disposition=inline
https://www.jstor.org/stable/40731347
https://www.historicbrass.org/edocman/hbj-1998/HBSJ_1998_JL01_001_Barclay.pdf
https://www.trumpetjourney.com/2013/08/04/help-im-a-baroque-trumpeter-and-i-dont-want-to-play-the-baroque-trumpet-anymore/
and especially trumpet-player and -maker Don Smithers' superb and fascinating Scientific American article:
https://sciam-cms.s3.amazonaws.com/sciam/cache/file/133ED525-8661-4A8A-996446A083A83238.pdf

(Modern terminology appears to be potentially confusing regarding Bach-period trumpets: the "Baroque trumpet" has vent holes; the ancient trumpet with no holes is called the "natural trumpet," which is not entirely unreasonable; but it can be misleading. Someone who don't already know the jargon might be led to believe that a "Baroque trumpet" is an authentic instrument of the period, but it is in fact an anachronistic modification for the convenience of modern players to superficially imitate the ancient trumpet, though the technique and timbre are quite different. But modern commercial considerations make it difficult for natural-trumpet players to get work; as Trevor Pinnock said, "we all fall from grace at the studio door.")

I do recall a single instance (which I've been unable to find again) of an ancient maker creating a batch of trumpets to a large order, and making one extra with one vent hole and was unfinished (no decorative garland or lanyard loops), which still survives. Apparently (so my fallible memory tells me) he made an experiment and felt it wasn't worth repeating.

Many thanks for thoughts and comments on this.

Zachary Uram wrote (June 18, 2023):
[To Sneffels]
https://www.historicbrass.org/edocman/hbj-1998/HBSJ_1998_JL01_001_Barclay.pdf
https://caslabs.case.edu/medren/baroque-instruments/trumpet-baroque/

Sneffels wrote (June 18, 2023):
[To Zachary Uram] Thanks for these articles.

The caslabs article is a good basic encyclopedia-style introduction to pre-classical trumpets; but it says nothing about actual extant examples of vented Bach-period trumpets, apart from a vague mention in passing that "Most original baroque trumpets had no fingerholes at all," without clarifying or giving examples or sources.

The Barclay I already cited in my original question. It's an excellent article delineating the modern problem of the authenticity of vented trumpets, but neither gives examples of existing vented Bach-period instruments nor denies they exist. It does say, "Towards the end of the eighteenth century experiments with venting of natural instruments were carried out, as is the case with Shaw’s “harmonic trumpet” of 1787;" by omitting mention of pre-1750 vented instruments, it vaguely implies that there were none, but that's only an inference made by the reader.

I'd love to see either actual existing examples of vented trumpets made before 1750, or an explicit and authoritative work that clearly and unambiguously says that none exist.

(Stilly trying to find the article I cited earlier, which says the only known example of such a vented trumpet is a single experimental instrument with just one hole, an experiment that was apparently never repeated.)

Many thanks for any further thoughts or information about this.

Jeffrey-Solow wrote (June 18, 2023):
[To Sneffels]

Jeffrey-Solow wrote (June 18, 2023):
[To Sneffels] Natural Trumpet by Johann Wilhelm Haas, Imperial City of Nürnberg, ca. 1710-1720 (National Music Museum The University of South Dakota)

Jeffrey-Solow wrote (June 18, 2023):
[To Sneffels] the earliest known trumpet with vent holes was made by the British craftsman William Shaw in 1787. William Shaw Trumpet 1787 (The Royal Collection Trust)

Jeffrey-Solow wrote (June 18, 2023):
[To Sneffels] Journal Article William Shaw's 'Harmonic Trumpet' (Jstor)
If you can access this article on the William Shaw trumpet (I was able to do so via the Temple University library), the description notes that there are 4 side vents on this trumpet, which was discovered in its original case, completely unaltered, exactly as it left its maker’s hands.

Sneffels wrote (June 20, 2023):
[To Jeffrey Sollow] Thanks, Jeffrey, for these very useful articles! Much appreciated.
(I have a JSTOR account so it was easy, thanks again!)

Jeffrey-Solow wrote (June 20, 2023):
[To Sneffels] that we are playing their music at all, they wouldn’t care how we played it!”

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (June 20, 2023):
[To Jeffrey Sollow] But modern commercial considerations make it difficult for natural-trumpet players to get work; as Trevor Pinnock said, "we all fall from grace at the studio door.")

There are some baroque trumpet players who certainly would disagree with that sentiment, and they do not use vented baroque trumpets. Two of the best that immediately come to mind are Jean-François Madeuf, and Julian Zimmermann; but there are others, mostly in France, UK and around Basel.

A video clip of Jean-François Madeuf playing the Bach Brandenburg Concerto no 2 in Oska, Japan with Sigiswald Kuijken leading La Petite Bande in 2011: YouTube

Or Jean-François Madeuf playing in an aria from Bach's Christmas Oratorio, December 2008 in Hanover, Germany: YouTube

And Julian Zimmermann playing a beautiful Telemann trumpet ouverture with Bremer Barockorchester: Natural Trumpet Video

and a clip of him playing Gottfried Reiche's Abblasen: YouTube

Jeffrey-Solow wrote (June 20, 2023):
[Kim Patrick Clow] I am aware that there are many who would disagree. That is why I said, "It is my sense that he would have been flexible." I found nothing wrong with investigating and trying to recreate Bach's musical conditions, including the instruments in his world (while keeping in mind that no modern performance can ever be proven to be accurate). I just think that the music trumps the instruments on which it is played.

Jeffrey-Solow wrote (June 20, 2023):
[Kim Patrick Clow] I should have said, "I find nothing wrong..."

John Garside (Bach Scholar) wrote (June 21, 2023):
It certainly doesn't answer your question about extant trumpets, but I see no mention of Charles Sanford Terry's book "Bach's Orchestra" here.
In my view, and that of many others I believe, this is perhaps the most complete research done into the instruments of Bach's time.
It may have been supersedin some respects by more modern research in some places, being first published in 1932, but it provides a very useful reference point I believe.

A copy of the book can be found at the Internet Archive, here: Bach's Orchestra by C.S.Terry

It is illustrated with extracts of Praetorius' works on the subject and provides a very interesting read indeed ... in my opinion, as do other works by Terry.
Here's a list of copyright free books of his on Bach. C.S.Terry on Bach

William L. Hoffman wrote (June 21, 2023):
Another book is Don L. Smithers' Trumpets, Horns, and Bach: Abschriften at the time of Christian Friedrich Penzel: Probing the Pedigree of BWV 143 (Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang, 2015), Amazon.com. It's a great study of Bach's use of the trumpet and the authenticity of New Year's Cantata 143. Also helpful is Andreas Glöckner's JSB Neue Sämtlicher Were Revised Edition: Weimar Cantatas, Vol. 2 (Kassel: Bärenreiter, 2012), Bärenriter, with its critical commentary translated into English, as well as the B-flat Penzel version and a presumed C Major version that authenticates a work Bach skeptic scholars dismissed.

Sneffels wrote (June 22, 2023):
A couple of counterexamples don't change the fact that the vast majority of "historically informed" trumpeters play with vented instruments, and in fact to find it very difficult to get work playing natural instruments. Audiences don't understand or like them, and conductors don't want them. And it's easier to learn to finger a few holes than it is to learn genuine historical technique, lipping pitch and tuning.

Julian Zimmermann, whom you cite, actually speaks against your point. In the interview I posted earlier, he talks at length about the problem and proposes some strategies for promoting natural trumpets against the commonplace anachronistic vented instruments that are everywhere. Trumpet Journey: Interview with Julian Zimmermann, natural baroque trumpet soloist (Aug 12, 2017)

Hunt around on the internet for period-trumpet performances and you'll find it extremely difficult to find any using natural trumpets: virtually all use vented trumpets. Look at, for example, the much-touted Netherlands Bach Society. They do have brilliantly vivid, colorful, and imaginative performances very much worth hearing, but the trumpets are all modern vented instruments, eg: Netherlands Bach Society: BWV 51

Here's a period-trumpet maker making excuses for putting vent-holes in instruments he persists in calling "natural;" he even has a video of himself building the things (using 21-century technology). MG Trumpets: Historic Trumpets (Not to put too fine a point on it, but for anyone who's read Smithers' superb Scientific American article, this is obvious bullshit.)

But here's another excellent example of genuine natural trumpet playing: Handel's Fireworks, Herve Niquet conducting. You can see from 0'24" on that all nine trumpeters are playing natural instruments one-handed with the other hand on the hip, just as they played in Bach's time. And they sound fabulous. (Even if Niquet looks exactly like Murnau's Nosferatu.) YouTube

Sneffels wrote (June 22, 2023):
Jeffrey Sollow wrote:
"...the music trumps the instruments on which it is played."
Yes, absolutely. (Well, maybe not the Rite Of Spring on 600 ocarinas.)

And you're right, we have no way of knowing what music actually sounded like in Bach's time (or any time before Edison). Case in point: EMI decided that Elgar was Britain's greatest living composer, and gave him essentially carte blanche to record any of his works using any ensembles or soloists he wanted, with all the rehearsal time he wanted. The result is a fair-sized collection of most of his major works exactly as he wanted them played. Listen to them and you'll hear portamento in the strings all over the place, sometimes several times in one bar. None of that is marked in the music, nor is it mentioned in any letters, articles, interviews, or other documentation of the time. The only way we know Elgar expected those portamentos is from those recordings. How much different must Bach have sounded! Nearly all the modern Elgar scholars (Solti, Andrew Davis, Haitink, Mackerras, Norrington, etc, even Boult) almost completely omit portamento, because it went out of fashion by the 1950s. Almost certainly the extensive use of portamento goes back centuries; it's mentioned or implied in many old documents as being essential to string technique (eg a Beethoven-era singing manual that instructed students to learn portamento by listening to string players). Yet hardly anyone has the nerve to play Bach with portamento now. (In this sense the Busch Bach recordings of the 1930s are more historically accurate than anything going now; and the portamento gives countrapuntal voices a wonderful clarity difficult to achieve otherwise.)

There was a magazine interview with Harnoncourt maybe 35 years ago, in which he said that we can't know what music sounded like then, but we do know that the musicians of that time had utterly different life-experiences from ours: no mass media, no easy travel, no recordings, if you cut your finger you could easily die from an infection, and so on. So, Harnoncourt said, to capture that sense, he tried to make his performances sound "as alien as possible." I rather like that. (Wish I could find that interview again....)

Jeffrey Solow wrote (June 22, 2023):
[To Sneffels] Here are some interesting Harnoncourt interviews and quotes:
-- Harnoncourt: An interview with Nikolaus Harnoncourt by Norman Lebrecht (Nov 2000)
-- Gramophone: Nikolaus Harnoncourt interview Gamophone January 2010 by Philip Clark

Harnoncourt on why his later Bach recordings sound more 'natural':
"I once listened with a German theater expert to the same monologue by the Austrian playwright Grillparzer in all existing recordings between 1908 and 1995. The early recordings were literally imbued with pathos, but at the time it was not felt to be excessive at all. It was the style in which people used to speak in the first half of the twentieth century. As time passed, the language became more natural, the pathos was reduced, and the rhyme was clearly brought to the fore. And again a generation later, people were supposed not to hear that rhyme at all, it was meant to sound like a natural way of speaking. Personally, I want to contribute in music to those stylistic differences that have already occurred in spoken language. There are now older singers who have adapted their style in the course of a long career, and in fact we have done the same. When we started we believed that old instruments could teach us a lot; how can you play on those instruments? What kind of sound are they asking for? But at the same time you know that the man blowing into that mouthpiece is a twentieth century man, and the sound he produces is never a baroque sound, but it is a contemporary sound. It is a false assumption if you think that we can exactly reproduce the performances of Bach's time. I think Bach would laugh heartily at what we do. But he would also find it interesting. To be honest, I think even Johann Strauss would laugh if he heard usplay simply because of the ever-changing fashions. Fashion, by the way, is not a negative phenomenon, but something that simply always exists in a constant dialectical change. ...[Also] when we started, we did not know the major role rhetoric plays, it simply did not feature in music studies. What exactly does it mean when the music follows the rules of the language, and how does that work? Gradually you will understand it better and you can make it your own in your daily music making. That is why it is quite possible that a later recording of the same work sounds more natural; it is something you can only achieve after years of study and practice." (Elke Week Een Cantate: Interview met Harnoncourt)

William L. Hoffman wrote (June 22, 2023):
There are two BCW interviews with Ton Koopman: Uri Golomb, BCW and mine, BCW. Some real insights into Bach and performing.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (June 22, 2023):
Sneffels wrote::
“A couple of counterexamples don't change the fact that the vast majority of "historically informed" trumpeters play with vented instruments... ”
Yes, and I was just illustrating there are some EXCELLENT "historically informed" trumpeters, even within the strict framework you've set up. These baroque trumpet players teach in music schools offering performance instruction on historial instrument curricula, e.g. Jean-François Madeuf Schola at the Cantorum Basiliensis. Madeuf performs and records quite extensively (cf: Madeuf: Discographie). Madeuf seems to counter “modern commercial considerations make it difficult for natural-trumpet players to get work.” Which is illustrated in your video link, with Herve Niquet conducting a performance of Handel's Royal Fireworks music: there are enough performers that could successfully perform it with the original number of trumpet players required. And along these same lines, I will mention that Edward Tarr, who was a baroque trumpet player, music editor, researcher and teacher, published a paper on the remarkable (re)discovery of one of the largest surviving collections of 18th century trumpets along with the music composed expressly for this collection in Lisbon, Portugal. Tarr also recorded some selections from this collection (on the BIS label) on the same Lisbon silver cast trumpets and performed the music (known as the Charamela Real sonatas). The largest sonata (no 54) requires 24 trumpets and timpani. That is quite the body of performers on those historical trumpets. YouTube

“Audiences don't understand or like them, and conductors don't want them.”
Oh....

Miguel Prohaska wrote (June 23, 2023):
What kind of trumpet are these players using?

Masaaki Suzuki conducting Bach Collegium Japen in last movement of Mass in B Minor "Dona Nobis Pacem" 3 min 49 seconds after ads.

Trumpeters shown briefly a few times. YouTube

Thanks,

Jeffrey Solow wrote (June 23, 2023):
[To Miguel Prohaska] Natural trumpets (no vents)

Miguel Prohaska wrote (June 23, 2023):
[To Jeffrey Sollow] Thank you very much for the information. Greatly appreciated.

Miguel Prohaska wrote (June 23, 2023):
period instruments

During the interchange of ideas that started with vented trumpets, the matter of period instruments came up.

Even if scientists could recreate the sounds that persons living in previous times heard, the experience of those sounds now would not be the same as those who heard them in the past. We experience a different soundscape (as defined in wikipedia) than those who lived before us.

Sneffels wrote (June 24, 2023):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
"Yes, and I was just illustrating there are some EXCELLENT "historically informed" trumpeters"
That's what I said when I first posted. Of course there are lots of excellent historically informed trumpeters. Nobody has said otherwise. I'm not sure why you bring this up.

And (as has already been pointed out) you cited Julian Zimmermann, but if you had read the interview with Zimmermann that was posted earlier, you'd have seen that he speaks explicitly, emphatically, and unambigously against your position, and discusses strategies for countering the overwhelming domination of vented over natural trumpets in professional concerts.

And once again, a small number of obviously exceptional counterexamples of players doesn't disconfirm the point that nearly all performances with Bach-period instruments use vented trumpets, not natural trumpets, making it very hard for natural trumpeters to get professional gigs.

The Bach cantata BWV 51 has already been cited as an example; ALL the Netherlands Bach Society videos show vented trumpets.

Here are some other examples from other big-name period ensembles, ALL using only vented trumpets:

Bach Cantata BWV 43, Bach-Stiftung (all their many performances use vented trumpets, same as Netherlands Bach): YouTube
Handel, Samson, The English Concert: YouTube
Handel, Resurrezione, Collegium 1704 (oh, the concertmaster is having such a good time in this performance!): YouTube
Telemann, Tag des Gerichts, Orchestra of the 18th Century: YouTube
Biber, Missa Salisburgensis, Collegium graecense: YouTube
Biber, Missa Bruxellensis, Concerto Stella Matutina + Company of Music: YouTube
Bach, Brandenburg 2, Concentus Musicus: YouTube
Orson Welles reads from Moby Dick (only here to see if anyone reads this far): Twitter
Cantata BWV 51 again, Trinity Baroque Orchestra: YouTube
Bach: Xmas oratorio, opening chorus, Ensemble Telemann (poor video but you can see well enough): YouTube
Handel, Water, Jordi Savall, Concert des Nations: YouTube
Handel, Fireworks, Jordi Savall, Concert des Nations (not same concert or venue as Water): YouTube
Bach: Xmas oratorio, English Baroque Soloists: YouTube

In the course of this search I found zero natural trumpet professional performances other than the already-cited Niquet Handel. Niquet shouldn't really count here, since it was a BBC Proms performance and therefore gets a lot of intense promotion by the BBC that no other concerts or venues can even hope to match. And can't find any other Niquet performances either, which is consistent with the BBC-hype hypothesis of artificially enhanced attention. It should be obvious that the Niquet Fireworks is the extremely rare exception that proves the rule.

If you can find, say, 5 or 6 different videos or other unambiguous documentation of actual concert performances with professional ensembles using natural trumpets, I'd be interested in discussing this further. (Student and university ensembles don't count because they don't need to please impresarios and ticket buyers.)

The whole point (as made by your friend Zimmermann) is that there's a very tiny market for natural trumpet playing but an overwhelmingly larger demand for vented trumpets, which makes it difficult (NB! not impossible, just very difficult) for natural trumpeters to get work.

"Oh."
Sarcasm doesn't strengthen a poor argument, especially when you're being sarcastic about something said explicitly by a trumpeter whom you yourself cited but who actually says the opposite of what you appear to believe. Did you read the Zimmermann interview?

Joel Harband wrote (June 25, 2023):
Here is a different angle on this thread.

The Silver Trumpets of the Israelites - ancestor of the Bach-period trumpets

It is interesting to recognize the origins of the Natural Trumpet and the Baroque Trumpet (Wikipedia) in the Silver Trumpets in the Bible 3000 years previously

When the Israelites were wandering in the desert after the exodus from Egypt, Moses was commanded by God to make two silver trumpets. These trumpets were used for communication to assemble the people and to break camp in an orderly way on a journey. They were also used as a kind of prayer to request God's assistance in battle and to request God's acceptance of burnt offerings.

There were two basic types of trumpet blasts or notes used in the desert:
- tekiah (one long blast/note)
- teruah (series of short staccato blasts/notes)
where they can be used singly or in combination.

Also significant is the difference between two trumpets playing together or one trumpet playing alone.

The following section of the Book of Numbers describes this in detail.

Source in the Book of Numbers, Chapter 10
1. The Lord said to Moses: 2. Make two trumpets, each hammered out from a block of silver, and use them to call the community together in order to address them and to command the camps to set out on a journey. 3. When both trumpets play tekiah, the whole community is to assemble before you at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 4. If only one trumpet plays tekiah, only the leaders­the heads of the clans of Israel­are to assemble before you. 5. When both trumpets play tekiah-teruah-tekiah, the tribes camping on the east are commanded to set out on the journey. 6. At the second playing of tekiah-teruah-tekiah, the camps on the south are commanded to set out and similarly for the camps on the west and north. 7. To gather the assembly (as in 3, 4 above), play the trumpets with tekiah, but not with teruah. 8. The sons of Aaron, the priests, are the ones to play the trumpets. This is to be a lasting ordinance for you and the generations to come. 9. When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is oppressing you, play teruah on the trumpets and you will be remembered by the Lord your God and rescued from your enemies. 10. Also at your times of rejoicing­your appointed festivals and New Moon feasts­play tekiah on the trumpets over your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, and they will be a memorial for you before your God. I am the Lord your God.

Some questions:
- What are the differences between the silver trumpet and the natural (brass) trumpet. How does the sound compare?
- How exactly were they manufactured from a single block of silver?
- What is the difference in sound between two trumpets playing and one trumpet playing that people could distinguish? Is it just the volume or are they playing two different tones.
- It is reasonable to assume that the Israelites got the basic idea of a trumpet from their stay in Ancient Egypt e.g. Tutankhamun's trumpets used by the Pharaoh to call his fighters into battle.

Joel Harband wrote (June 26, 2023):
Question about Bach-period trumpets - Silver Trumpets

Here is the continuation of my message from yesterday:

Connection of the Silver Trumpets to Bach's Trumpets
It is reasonable to assume that the Israelites got the basic idea of a trumpet as a communications device from their stay in Ancient Egypt e.g. Tutankhamun's trumpets used by the Pharaoh to call his fighters into battle. However the Israelites were the first to use the trumpet as an instrument of prayer to God - for success on the battlefield and for the acceptance of burnt offerings. This is the reason that verse 8 that designates the sons of Aaron, the priests, as the ones to play the trumpets, appears after the uses of the trumpets as a communications device but before their uses for prayer: only the priests have the proper holy intentions to play the trumpet as a prayer.

Here the Israelites anticipated the Christian European composers 3000 years later who wrote Passions, Masses and Cantatas as instruments of prayer to God that included nonvocal elements like the trumpet whose sound could reach the heavens.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (June 26, 2023):
[To Sneffels] Thank you for those links :-)

Miguel Prohaska wrote (June 27, 2023):
Bach and the trumpet

The reasons Bach liked the trumpet is explained by John Eliot Gardiner on pages 456 and 457 of Music in the Castle of Heaven, Penguin 2014.

Sneffels wrote (June 27, 2023):
Would it be possible to share a brief summary of the reasons Bach liked the trumpet, for those of us who do not have access to this book? Thank you.

Jeffrey Solow wrote (June 27, 2023):
[To Sneffels] I have been searching for my copy to do exactly that!

Jeffrey Solow wrote (June 27, 2023):
Gardiner says Bach was inspired by Leipzig’s municipal Stadtpfeifer, “a virtuoso group of trumpeters” led by Gottfreid Rache “from whom he could have learnt what melodic possibilities these instruments held, both singly and contrapuntally…” And as well, “the concept of a heavenly choir of trumpet-blowing angels was implanted in Bach when he was a schoolboy in Eisenach.” He was taught that the role of angels was to praise God in song and dance, and act as allies to men “and fight on God’s side in the cosmic battle against evil.”

Miguel Prohaska wrote (June 27, 2023):
[To Jeffrey Sollow] Thanks for writing and sending that.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (June 30, 2023):
Interestingly enough, this was posted to a baroque trumpet group on Facebook. It's extremely interesting regarding the topic of baroque trumpet vent holes and authenticity. YouTube

An in-depth 'baroque-u-mentary', taking a look at the pioneering work behind Guts and Glory; a project from London based period instrumentalists Spiritato! Focussing on the music of Biber and Schmelzer, the trumpeters use natural trumpets without finger holes whilst the strings play on all-gut, equal tension set-ups. Filmed during rehearsals for the ensemble's 2016 UK tour, players discuss the issues surrounding the project and the impact these have on our understanding of Early Music performance.

Jeffrey Solow wrote (June 30, 2023):
[To Kim Patrick Clow] Really nice presentation--thanks!!!

Sneffels wrote (July 29, 2023):
(Sorry it's taken me a while to respond!)

There's no evidence that trumpets of the Israelites (or any other antique cultures) were ancestors of modern European instruments.

But it's certainly not true that the Israelites were the first to use trumpets in religious ceremonies. The Egyptians used trumpets in religious ceremonies long before the Biblical description of the Israelites; and there exist two intact Egyptian instruments of the time. There seems to be no evidence whatever for even the existence of the putative Israelites' silver trumpets other than hearsay in the Book of Numbers, where they were said to be used to call the Israelites to assemble. Note that Numbers was written 500 to 1000 years after the events it claims to describe. And since Numbers has been clearly shown to be unreliable, and most of its descriptions are severely distorted or simply never happened, it's reasonable to conclude that those Israelite trumpets are probably mythical.

There is also some evidence that trumpets served religious functions before the Israelites in Sumeria, New Guinea, Brazil, Australia, northern Europe, China and various parts of Asia, in fact all over the world. Many Scandinavian lurs of that time still exist, although there's no evidence for how they were used: we just don't know, although religious use cannot be ruled out. Nearly all known lurs were found in pairs; this may or not mean anything.

Biblical texts are often extremely unreliable and contradictory, frequently conflict with well-established facts, and are often just fabrications. All were written long after the events described and must be regarded as unreliable hearsay; and all are questionable copies, or from multiple generations of copies, of unknown originals. Another related example: "Trumpets" (a mistranslation of the Hebrew "shofar," a horn made from a ram's horn) are described in Joshua as played by the Israelites at the Battle of Jericho; but the site of Jericho, at the supposed time of its destruction, had been completely abandoned for centuries. Joshua's description of the Battle of Jericho and its famous trumpets is pure invention.

(The Wikipedia articles on the history of the trumpet are also unreliable with many errors and assumptions presented as fact, and have almost no supporting citations.)

For the history of the trumpet, nearly all the best historical information can be found collected or summarized in Edward Tarr's excellent and definitive book, "The Trumpet." Although he presents much information about the various trumpets of antiquity, from 3500 years ago forward -- Egyptian, Assyrian, Israelite, Greek, Etruscan, Roman, Indian, Chinese, etc -- Tarr does not describe any lineal relationship or substantial direct influence of any on any other; he mentions a few resemblances (such as Egyptian trumpets probably being slightly longer than the hypothetical Israelite instruments) but never asserts any line of descent from group to group. He also notes that ancient Asian instruments had several knobs or balls on their tubes, as did the Teutonic lur and the later Baroque natural trumpet, but the Asian knobs marked the ends of telescoping sections while the Baroque knobs were purely decorative, so this resemblance is at best ambiguous. The true relationships amongst antique trumpets, and the early origins of the modern instrument, will probably never be known. It's possible trumpets were developed multiple times independently.

And a precedent is not necessarily an antecedent: The simple fact of one event being earlier than another similar event may or may not indicate a lineal or causal relationship. Borges' essay "Kafka and his Precursors" brilliantly illustrates the risk of presuming that apparent resemblances indicate influence or direct connection, and is well worth close reading for anyone interested in history (or almost any field of thought).

Early trumpets were not melody instruments. All of them just made one or two very loud noises. Descriptions of their sounds from antiquity say they were raucous, loud, horrible, screaming, and so on; some armies used them to terrify enemies. Occasionally some instruments were described as "impressive" or similar, which did not indicate a pleasant sound: these early trumpets did not have what we would recognize as a musical use, but rather were meant to "impress" the listener in ceremonies, or as signals audible from afar, and likely not much different from loud hammering on logs, stones, or metal, or honking through wooden tubes. The transition from these to the melodic instruments we know is far from clear. Tarr and other scholars point out that the end of the Western Roman Empire also meant the disappearance of their trumpets; and that the Crusaders' busine came from the Saracens.

So it's pure speculation, almost certainly false, that the European Baroque trumpets we know descended from ancient Israelite trumpets (especially since they probably didn't exist). Chinese or Indian trumpets or others or some combination seem slightly more likely; or perhaps all were invented independently and there simply were no ancestors of the European trumpet. Again, we just don't know. (In my mind all this chaos implies the possibility of an independent origin of our trumpet, but of course that's also just speculation.)

Although Tarr fills several pages with the lip technique of natural Baroque trumpet playing, he mentions fingerholes only twice (p. 87, 192) and only in passing: 1) fingerholes appeared after 1760 and were certainly not used in Baroque trumpet playing; and 2): Tarr remarks very sarcastically that modern "clarino" trumpeter Walter Holy's "success was guaranteed through Steinkopf's brilliant invention of a three-hole system" in 1960. Beyond these two terse comments, Tarr speaks eloquently about vented trumpets by completely ignoring them.

==========

Regarding your four questions:

"What are the differences between the silver trumpet and the natural (brass) trumpet. How does the sound compare?"

Presumably you mean the difference between the hypothetical Israelite trumpets and our Baroque trumpets. All antique trumpets made only 1 or 2 very approximate notes (if they made a recognizable pitch at all), and were described as raucous, noisy, horrible, loud, "like the braying of an ass." They were like foghorns: built to get attention, not to make anything we'd recognize as music. If you mean the difference between modern trumpets made of silver and brass (this doesn't apply to the hypothetical Israelite trumpets because of the braying noise they would have made), some players say silver trumpets sound slightly brighter and softer; but objective tests conflict, eg:
https://www.ackermanmusic.co.uk/musical-instruments-blog/sound-silver-trumpet/
https://acoustics.org/pressroom/httpdocs/133rd/2amu4.html

"How exactly were they manufactured from a single block of silver?"

They weren't. You're probably referring to the Numbers 10 story of Moses being told to make trumpets "of a whole piece" according to the crappy "authorized version" translation. The original Hebrew doesn't say that at all, it says (approximately) "stiff shall you make them."

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/num10.pdf

The silver-block thing sounds more like something made up by some medieval monk who knew nothing about metalwork but thought it would be cool to tell people a fairy tale about trumpets made from metal bricks. All metal trumpets are made by shaping sheets of metal into tubes, or molding liquid metal in the so-called "lost-wax" technique. Even with cutting-edge 21st-century technology it'd be extremely difficult to carve a trumpet from a solid block; and why on earth would you bother, when you can much more easily hammer or mold instruments just as good or better? Or maybe the Israelites had 3-D printers.

"What is the difference in sound between two trumpets playing and one trumpet playing that people could distinguish? Is it just the volume or are they playing two different tones."

Presumably you still mean those mythical Israelite trumpets. Basically they would have been just loud noisemakers; two foghorns are louder than one. They might have different pitches, but the pitch was very inaccurate and variable, and almost certainly meant nothing to the players (who had no mouthpieces so they couldn't adjust pitch with their lips), and would clash wildly and sound awful to our ears. (Keeping in mind that those trumpets probably didn't exist.)

It would be great to hear about how magnificent and splendid those ancient silver trumpets sounded because that's how the myth goes; but unfortunately (if they existed) they would have sounded like a herd of tyrannosaurs eating each other alive.

And in any case, what constitutes an attractive sound, and our reactions to it, are extremely variable across cultures, time, and fashions. Some examples from Telemann, and the court of Louis XIV:
https://www.hornmatters.com/2013/06/trompes-de-chasse-vs-telemann/

(cued to start partway in:) YouTube
and: YouTube

That (to us) bizarre sound was common then, and it's still used today in certain very serious church rituals in Paris, where it's considered sombre and solemn, not absurd and ridiculous. What did a trumpet that could only blare one shrieking note sound like to people 3500 years ago? There's no way to ever know. But keep those tyrannosaurs in mind.

"It is reasonable to assume that the Israelites got the basic idea of a trumpet from their stay in Ancient Egypt e.g. Tutankhamun's trumpets used by the Pharaoh to call his fighters into battle."

Presumably you mean this as a question: "Is it reasonable to assume....", and not the statement of fact it looks like. If you're drawing conclusions from that assumption, then it is NOT reasonable to assume that the Israelites got the basic idea of a trumpet from their stay in Ancient Egypt, especially since it's very likely the Israelite trumpets never existed. It's also misleading to cite Pharaoh's military signal trumpets and omit the fact that the Egyptians used trumpets in religious ceremonies. (I suspect you're confusing "assumptions" with "conclusions." An assumption is only a temporary guess that might or might not be true, equivalent to "let's pretend this for a while," and should never be the basis of assertions of knowledge.) With that in mind, there is no actual evidence that the Israelites stole, borrowed, imitated, or first heard the idea of trumpets from the Egyptians. Of course it's possible, but in the absence of evidence, the only thing we can reasonably say is, "we don't know," and keep looking for evidence. And since several centuries of assiduous archaeology has found zero evidence (unlike for Egyptian, Assyrian, Greek, and Roman trumpets), it seems unlikely that the mythical Israelite silver trumpets ever existed.

Bruce Simonson wrote (July 29, 2023):
[To Sneffels] Vuvuzela at FIFA World Cup 2010 in S Africa comes to mind: YouTube

Zachary Uram wrote (July 30, 2023):
[To Sneffels] Your atheism is showing!!!

John Garside wrote (July 30, 2023):
[To Zachary Uram] On the contrary, I see signs of good quality research into many sources of historical evidence, not the belief in poorly translated myth.

Joel Harband wrote (July 31, 2023):
[To Sneffels] Thank you for responding and for the many explanations, additions and corrections on the subject of the biblical Silver Trumpets.

You cast doubt on the existence of the Silver Trumpets on the basis that "Biblical texts are often extremely unreliable and contradictory, frequently conflict with well-established facts, and are often just fabrications".

It would be interesting to know what Bach himself would say about this issue.

Amazingly, we have a way of finding out: Bach added his own notes, corrections and remarks to his personal copy of the bible (annotated Calov bible) and these notes reveal Bach's thinking on religious issues. Bach's own Bible

Professor Michael Marissen has analyzed these notes and the results are very helpful. NY Time

In short, there are two types of truth: empirical truth and religious truth, each with its own method of proof (Beweis in German) and its own area of application. Empirical truth requires proof of observation and evidence and is used in science whereas religious truth requires proof of revelation from God in a text from the Bible and is used in religion. In case a verse in the Bible, for example, on the Silver Trumpets, has no empirical evidence or contradicts empirical evidence the religious truth of the verse prevails.

Professor Marissen shows that Bach as a conservative Lutheran was very much a believer in religious truth as he concludes: Both Bach’s music and his Calov notations put powerful stress upon contempt for human reason, along with the exalting of biblical revelation as the proper arbiter of truth.

From this I deduce that Bach believed in the existence of the Israelite Silver Trumpets since they appear in the Old Testament and, as Professor Marissen explains, they served as a "shadow" (a kind of antecedent) for later use in Christian music similar to the priestly music in the Jerusalem Temple in the Old Testament. Would be interesting to see what if anything Bach noted in his Bible on the Silver Trumpets.

Sneffels wrote (August 3, 2023):
To Joel Harband] You are confusing "belief" with "truth"; and "might be" with "is."

Of course Bach believed in the Christian mythos, and it had a profound effect on his music. Understanding that is essential to understanding Bach, just as understanding Athena and Apollo are essential to understanding the Iliad.

The Bach-annotated Bible has been known for nearly a century; you can have a copy for 5500 euros. Does he say anything about those silver trumpets? Just mentioning those annotations without bothering to check if they have anything to do with the present discussion is only a distraction. I'd bet a pizza that Bach said nothing about those trumpets. If he said anything, it would be well-known and frequently cited in historical research. But it's not.

There are not "two types of truth." What someone believes by "revelation" is purely internal, personal and private, and has nothing to do with the external world. If it did, then you must accept as true the revelations to Muslims that Jesus was just another prophet, superseded by Mohammed. The Hindus' revelations about Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva and Shakti must also be true. 30,000,000 Sikhs can't be wrong with their revelations from the prophet Guru Nanak. Raelians and Aetherians have revelations that UFOs are space aliens who are gods. The Mormons had revelations about magic underwear; that must also be true. Druids, Wiccans, Soka Gakkai, Yazdans, Zoroastrians, Akanists, Dinkans, Sans, and Kemetics have all had revelations. There are 2600 gods revealed to humanity all over the world. So are there 2600 truths? Claiming there are multiple truths makes the word "truth" meaningless and useless. These are beliefs, not truths. Truths are verifiable independently of the believer.

You said: 'You cast doubt on the existence of the Silver Trumpets on the basis that "Biblical texts are often extremely unreliable and contradictory, frequently conflict with well-established facts, and are often just fabrications"'. Then you drop the subject. Do you have more to say? The Bible tells you that bats are birds, whales are fish, the world is flat, and pi is exactly equal to three. Anything said about ancient silver trumpets in such a text must be carefully verified with multiple lines of independent evidence before it's acceptable; even the vast majority of Christian historians and Biblical scholars agree on that. Unlike Egyptian trumpets, of which we have two existing examples, there's not the slightest evidence supporting the existence of those Israelite silver trumpets other than that single clearly unreliable text. Add to that the fact that interpretations of the text range from absolute acceptance of every word in the text (the world is flat), all the way to everything in that text is metaphorical and not meant to be taken in any sense as fact. It's simply nonsense to claim that the "religious truth of the verse prevails," given how clearly and obviously unreliable the texts are. And: "In case a verse in the Bible, for example, on the Silver Trumpets, has no empirical evidence or contradicts empirical evidence the religious truth of the verse prevails." No, you can't just say "You can't prove it's wrong, therefore it's true." You owe me $20. You can't prove you don't, so pay up.

Now let's put the concepts together. To fully understand Bach's music, of course we need to understand his beliefs and their relationship with his music. To understand the history and origins of the trumpet, we need to examine thousands of archaeological relics and texts, examine their relationships, and try to understand the significance of their many contradictions and omissio. What Bach believed about the history of the trumpet is a very interesting point; though we have no idea what he thought about those silver trumpets. Even if those Israelite silver trumpets did exist, there's nothing, nothing, linking them to the trumpets of any other culture at any other time. But just rejecting 2599 revelations and claiming your favorite is the reliable one is disingenuous at best. We need to understand both Bach's beliefs, and what actually happened in the real world and the real facts that Bach was working with; and recognize that those may be contradictory and try to understand what that might mean.

The scholarly discussions in this group are interesting and enlightening, exactly because they refer not to personal beliefs, but to documented facts and evidence which should continue and expand.

Question about Bach-period trumpets - Silver Trumpets

Zachary Uram wrote (August 24, 2023):
[To Sneffels] There was a discussion on this list about trumpets and in answering certain questions a certain list member suddenly launched into an offtopic tirade attacking the Bible. This sort of polemical discussion of the Christian faith has absolutely no place on a mailing list devoted to music.

I see this online frequently from atheists. In their view God doesn't exist, yet He's to blame for all the world's problems and they hate him! It's absurd.

I have been in many Facebook groups, discussion forums, and mailing lists where atheists will launch into weak attacks on the Bible and the Christian faith in general and they are totally off topic. If I want to hear attacks on the veracity of the Bible I'll join a Richard Dawkings mailing list.

Sadly the list admins said nothing to reprimand and rebuke the offender. So I'll say it: KINDLY KEEP OFF TOPIC DISCUSSION OFF THE LIST!!

Jeffrey Solow wrote (August 24, 2023):
[To Zachary Uram] I did not see any content in any of these emails as promoting atheism or attacking anyone’s belief in God or religion. The discussion was about historically reliable evidence regarding the existence of certain physical objects. What I saw was skepticism regarding the belief in the Bible as an infallibly reliable historical source — the view of most historians. Of course, if someone accepts the Bible as literally true in every regard, then I can understand that such skepticism could be viewed as an attack on religion. If you are taking that position and are offended by such skepticism, I would say that is over-sensitivity on your part.S

Miguel Parohaska wrote (August 24, 2023):
Bach and religious beliefs

[To Jeffrey Solow] It speaks to the universal appeal of Bach's music that it is appreciated by persons of different beliefs. As a personal story: my uncle, Felix Prohaska, from whom I learned about Bach through his recordings, did not indicate he had any religious beliefs; I appreciate Bach's sacred works because of my religious beliefs.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (August 24, 2023):
Sneffels wrote:
“Unlike Egyptian trumpets, of which we have two existing examples, there's not the slightest evidence supporting the existence of those Israelite silver trumpets other than that single clearly unreliable text.”
Well,,,, the arch of Titus clearly shows a triumph in Rome celebrating the defeat of Jerusalem in 7O CE, and that depiction shows a celebratory triumphal march with the carrying the spoils from the sacking of Jerusalem; including a Menorah, as well as chatsotserah (the silver trumpets that were used in the temple cult in Jerusalem; (they are clearly not shofars). Josephus described the parade as he saw it:

“The spoils in general were borne in promiscuous heaps; but conspicuous above all stood those captured in the temple at Jerusalem. These consisted of a golden table, many talents in weight, and a lampstand, likewise made of gold, but constructed on a different pattern than those which we use in ordinary life. Affixed to a pedestal was a central shaft, from which there extended slender branches, arranged trident-fashion, a wrought lamp being attached to the extremity of each branch, of these there were seven, indicating the honor paid to that number among the Jews. After these, and last of all the spoils, was carried a copy of the Jewish Law. They followed a large party carrying images of victory, all made of ivory and gold. Behind them drove Vespasian, followed by Titus; while Domitian rode beside them, in magnificent apparel and mounted on a steed that was in itself a sight.” The Jewish War VII: 148-153, Thackeray translation.

That said, I think all that can be said is the arch of Titus is only showing what was taken from Jerusalem in 70 C.E.

Sneffels wrote (August 24, 2023):
There has been no "attack" on any faith, and no mention of whether anyone should personally accept or reject any religious belief, in particular or in general.

This forum is of course focussed on the music of Bach and relevant topics. Historical facts are important in understanding understanding him and his works, and establishing the reliablity of sources is an essential part of the historiographical process. A source has been clearly shown to be historically unreliable, and it's of prime importance to ensure conclusions are not drawn based solely on that source with no independent confirmation.

That said, it is profoundly insulting and grossly unfair to single out "atheists" for specific personal attack, incorrectly imputing statements and beliefs to that entire group as well as vilifying them personally as individuals. Certainly nobody has said anything whatsover in this group about "Christians," and any explicit attack on "atheists" should be recognized and acknowledged as an irrelevant distraction and an attempt to suppress fair and reasonable disagreement. Promotion of personal belief and villainizing everyone who disagrees is completely off topic and should not be permitted or condoned. It's critically important to recognize and understand the difference between discussing facts, and ad hominem remarks on persons presenting facts.

No group has any monopoly on either truth or bad behavior.

I hope that none of us wants a flame war. Personal attacks and demands for censure should be carefully avoided by everyone. Reasoned arguments based on verifiable facts should be welcomed and encouraged.

Jeffrey Solow wrote (August 24, 2023):
[To Sneffels] Hear! Hear! Well said.

Sneffels wrote (August 24, 2023):
[To Kim Patrick Clow] Interesting observations -- thanks, Kim.

And, as you say, it only shows an event at least 700 years after and 2300 kilometers away from the putative construction silver trumpets described in the Book of Numbers. And while Josephus's writings are of course very important for historical understanding, they have also been strongly criticized as biased and propagandistic.

Jeffrey Solow wrote (August 24, 2023):
[To Kim Patrick Clow] The depiction of what does seem to be two trumpets on the Arch of Titus are truly interesting!

Although, as previously stated, " Even if those Israelite silver trumpets did exist, there's nothing, nothing, linking them to the trumpets of any other culture at any other time."

Here is an article by Dr. Steven Fine on the digital restoration of the relevant carvings on the Arch: file:///C:/Users/Jeff/Downloads/BAR-MJ17-ArchofTitus-3-13-17.pdf

"The trumpets with the table are silver, in keeping with Josephus’s description of two silver horns conceived by Moses for the desert tabernacle."

and another article about creating a computer-controlled carved replica of the restored panel based on Dr. Fine's scans: https://www.timesofisrael.com/life-size-relief-replica-stars-in-arch-of-titus-show-in-new-york/

Jeffrey Solow wrote (August 24, 2023):
[To Kim Patrick Clow] sorry, IS interesting...

Noting the depiction in the carvingson the Arch was a great find, Kim!

Alain Bruguières wrote (August 24, 2023):
[To Kim Patrick Clow] The Josephus text as quoted doesn't mention silver trumpets, although the wording suggests it is exhaustive. And the "images of victory", the only part of the treasure which is not described in detail, is nonetheless explicitly said to be exclusively of gold and ivory.

Where do you see silver trumpets?

As to the instruments carved in stone, I wonder how you see that they are made of silver.

Not that this question interests me in the least, but I'm curious how you reach your conclusions.

Barry B. wrote (August 24, 2023):
[To Jeffrey Solow] I think I see three accordions too.

Sneffels wrote (August 25, 2023):
Traces of yellow ochre were found on the sculpted menorah; but nothing on the trumpets, and their coloration is purely speculative. The quotation by Fine makes it clear that the hypothetical silver color is indeed a speculation based on one Roman description of horns, many centuries after the putative events described in Numbers. Also, that description is from Josephus, whose reliability is variable.

An academic review of Fine's book on the restoration of the arch: https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2022/2022.06.27/

"The other coloration of the mock-up is a hypothetical reconstruction done with the aid of comparanda, including computer scans and “comparisons with ancient Roman frescoes” (p. 25). It would have been especially gratifying to know for certain that the two trumpets attached to the shewbread table—as shown in the Polychrome Model—were painted grey and not yellow, indicating silver rather than bronze, and thereby recalling the initial pair that Moses is said to have crafted for the Tabernacle at Sinai (Num. 10.2 and cf. Josephus, Antiquitates Judaicae 3.291–2)."

Jeffrey Solow wrote (August 26, 2023):
[To Sneffels] I agree - all colors except for the Menorah are completely hypothetical. The sculpture does show trumpet-like instruments of some sort, though (for whatever that is worth).

Joel Harband wrote (August 28, 2023):
Silver Trumpets to Bach's Trumpets

While we are on the topic of the Silver Trumpets, I want to go back to my original question for which I have now found the answer: In the Book of Numbers, Chapter 10, 8-10 we first see the use of the Silver Trumpets by the Israelites in the desert for prayer for success in battle and in religious services where the trumpets are played by the priests. Subsequently, the Bible in Chronicles I and II describes their use, as well as other musical instruments, in the religious services in the Temple in Jerusalem (these are the ones depicted in the Roman mural).

The question is: to what extent did the Silver Trumpets used by the Israelites in prayer anticipate the Christian European composers 3000 years later like Bach who wrote Passions, Masses and Cantatas as instruments of prayer to God that included non-vocal elements like the trumpet.

The answer was given by Bach himself in his commentary on Chronicles I and II that he wrote in his copy of the Calov Bible. He wrote: The music in the services in the Temple in Jerusalem was the true foundation of all godly church music for the reason that the devotional music there was able to invoke the presence of God with His grace.

Bach is giving full credit to the devotional music in the Jerusalem Temple to be the foundation and basis for subsequent devotional music in the church, including his own, in that it achieved the ultimate goal of invoking Gods presence.

Following are the verses in Chronicles I and II concerning music in the Temple on which Bach commented. For each verse I bring Rashi's commentary (instead of Calov) and Bach's comment in German with English translation. Below that I displayed the images of the material from the translations of Calov Bible on Internet Archive.

Chronicles 1 Chapter 25 1 Facsimile 110 Translation 418
1. David and the captains of the army selected for the musical service in the Temple the sons of the Levites Asaph, Heman, and Jeduthun, who could prophesy with harps, stringed instruments, and cymbals.
Rashi explains that not all the Levites were chosen but only those who were musicians and able to play these instruments. And their playing was on such a high spiritual level that it invoked God's presence so that they could prophesy and inspire others to do so.
Bach comments in his Calov Bible:
Dieses capitel ist das wahre fundament aller gottgefalliger kirchen music, usw
Translation:
This chapter is the true foundation of all godly church music, etc

Chronicles 1 Chapter 28 21 Facsimile 111 Translation 418
21. [David says to Shlomo] And behold the divisions of the priests and the Levites for all the service of the House of God, and with you in all the work for every volunteer with wisdom for every service, and the leaders and all the people for all your words.
Rashi:
- I (David) arranged and set everything up, and I prepared for you (Shlomo) the divisions and the laborers, and you have not to delay it but to build the House immediately.
- the leaders: who are appointed over the laborers and their officers.
- all the people for all your words: to perform your command.
Bach comments in his Calov Bible:
Ein herrlicher Beweiss, dass neben anderen Anstalten des Gottesdienstes, besonders auch die musica vom Gottes Geist durch David mit angeordnet worden
Translation:
A wonderful proof that, in addition to other institutions of worship, especially the music were ordered by the Spirit of God through David
Joel: Here we see that for Bach a quote from scripture is "proof" of its truth - even from the Old Testament since according to Luther it is equivalent to the New Testament in authority.

Chronicles 2 chapter 5 12, 13 Translation 419
12. All the Levites who were musicians­Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun and their sons and relatives­stood on the east side of the altar, dressed in fine linen and playing cymbals, harps and lyres. They were accompanied by 120 priests sounding trumpets.
13. The trumpeters and musicians joined in unison to give praise and thanks to the Lord. Accompanied by trumpets, cymbals and other instruments, the singers raised their voices in praise to the Lord and sang: “He is good; his love endures forever.” Then the temple of the Lord was filled with the cloud (God's presence)

Rashi explains "in unison" that everyone sang and played exactly together.
Bach comments in his Calov Bible:
Bey einer andachtigen Musig ist allezeit gott mit seiner Gnaden-Gegenwart
Translation:
With devotional music, God is always present with His grace
Joel: Bach chose to comment on v. 13 (and not 12) which speaks mainly about trumpets to emphasize that it is the trumpets played by the priests that are able to invoke God's presence with His grace.

Notes:

Thanks to sneffels for showing how to access the Bach commentary in the Calov Bible through the Internet Archive.

https://archive.org/details/calovbibleofjsba0000bach/page/n5/mode/2up

See the article by Prof Michael Marissen which discusses the same Bach commentary https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/30/arts/music/bach-religion-music.html

Here are the images from the Calov Bible translation:

Jeffrey Solow wrote (August 28, 2023):
[Joel Harband] Interesting to find these additional Biblical referrals to trumpets, but all they show is that Bach may have written trumpet parts in religious works because of Biblical mentions (although Bach does not specifically mention trumpets). The Biblical text or Bach's marginal comments do not establish the slightest evolutionary connection between any ancient Israelite trumpets and the trumpets of Bach's time.

Joel Harband wrote (August 29, 2023):
[To Jeffrey Solow] I'll try to explain it again:

In his comments Bach recognizes and acknowledges that the Israelites were the firsto integrate music into a religious service in a consistent, organized and effective way with the priests and the Levites playing silver trumpets as well as other musical instruments and as such to lay the foundation for the subsequent use of devotional music in the church ("the true foundation of all godly church music") so in that sense Bach's trumpets in his religious works were based on the Silver Trumpets in the Jerusalem Temple. We are talking here about the applications and uses of the trumpet and not about its physical design which of course evolved over time.

Alain Bruguières wrote (August 30, 2023):
[To Joel Harband] It seems to me that the trumpet had been in use in European church music for quite some time when Bach started his career and he took up this tradition because he didn't invent everything from scratch. I very much doubt he decided to use the trumpet because it is mentioned in the Bible. It is no surprise that the passage you mentioned made sense to him, but to infer that he used the trumpet because of it is a little bit far-fetched. He used the organ in his church music but I very much doubt that instrument is mentioned in the Bible, nor are most of the instruments Bach used.

Besides, I wonder what amount of evolution in the physical design of an instrument it would take for one to consider that it becomes a different instrument with a different name...

A last consideration : I very much doubt that the Israelites were the first to integrate music into a religious service. I wonder what evidence this assertion might be based on.

Aryeh Oron wrote (August 30, 2023):
Alain Bruguières wrote
< A last consideration : I very much doubt that the Israelites were the first to integrate music into a religious service. I wonder what evidence this assertion might be based on. >
See 4. at: https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1008228/jewish/Klei-Hamikdash-Chapter-3.htm

Description at: https://www.ritmeyer.com/product/image-library/temple-mount/herods-temple-mount/trumpet-blowing

Sneffels wrote (August 31, 2023):
Alain Bruguières wrote
< A last consideration : I very much doubt that the Israelites were the first to integrate music into a religious service. I wonder what evidence this assertion might be based on. >
The Egyptians and many other cultures are known to have used trumpets in religious ceremonies long before the Biblical description of the Israelites; and there exist two intact Egyptian instruments predating the putative Israelite instruments described in Numbers. There is also evidence that trumpets served religious functions before the Israelites in Sumeria, New Guinea, Brazil, Australia, northern Europe, China and various parts of Asia, in fact all over the world. (Note that the Book of Numbers, which started all this discussion, was written 500 to 1000 years after the events it claims to describe, and has been clearly shown to be highly unreliable as most of what it describes is severely distorted or simply never happened.)

An excellent resource is Edward Tarr's definitive book, The Trumpet, which includes or summarizes pretty much everything known of the world history of the trumpet.

Sneffels wrote (August 31, 2023):
It's great to know Bach was aware of the mention of silver trumpets in the Book of Numbers. Good sleuthing, Joel, finding Bach's references to it.

It should be noted that Bach "recognizes and acknowledges that the Israelites were the first to integrate music into a religious service," is misleading, since it implies that the Israelite use of trumpets is an historical fact. Bach may have believed it, but it's definitely not true. The Egyptians and many other cultures used trumpets in religious ceremonies long before the Biblical description of the Israelites; and there exist two intact Egyptian instruments of that time. There is also evidence that trumpets served religious functions before the Israelites in Sumeria, New Guinea, Brazil, Australia, northern Europe, China and various parts of Asia, in fact all over the world. And Numbers was written 500 to 1000 years after the events it claims to describe; and Numbers has been clearly shown to be unreliable as most of the events it describes are severely distorted or simply never happened. Nothing in it should be accepted without substantial independent evidence.

It's crucial to clearly distinguish between what someone believes, and what actually happened. "Bach believed those trumpets existed" is correct, but "Bach knew those trumpets existed" is not correct. It's important to understand what Bach believed since it certainly affected his thoughts and his work; but what actually happened directly affects all of us.

Sneffels wrote (September 3, 2023):
Joel Harband:
"The question is: to what extent did the Silver Trumpets [of Numbers] used by the Israelites in prayer anticipate the Christian European composers 3000 years later like Bach who wrote Passions, Masses and Cantatas as instruments of prayer to God that included non-vocal elements like the trumpet."

The trumpets in Numbers were NOT used in prayer. "These silver trumpets have two primary purposes: to summon the congregation and to set out on their journey. The silver trumpet is used to make people alert and get attention. It is also used to sound the alarm of battle." Numbers 10:1-13: Two silver trumpets and the Messiah (Hallel Fellowship).

And proper wording of a question is crucial.

To anticipate is to consciously expect something, but obviously the Israelites 3000 years ago knew nothing about Bach. And the assertion that the trumpets were "used by the Israelites" is not a fact, it's a speculation. (This is called begging the question.)

We've already seen that there is no evidence those silver trumpets 3000 years ago apart from their mention in the Book of Numbers, which is extremely unreliable (as has already been emphasized). Maybe they did exist; but we do not know, there is no evidence that they did, and until there is, they should be treated as hypothetical, not as fact.

A clearer, more productive question would be something like, "How was Bach influenced by the description of silver trumpets in Numbers?"

"the Bible in Chronicles I and II describes their use, as well as other musical instruments, in the religious services in the Temple in Jerusalem"
1 and 2 Chronicles talks about trumpets in the time of David. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Numbers. The present topic of discussion is Bach's hypothetical interest in the putative Numbers trumpets. Why bring Chronicles into this? It's a red herring.

Furthermore, Chronicles and Kings tell very different stories about similar subjects. Archaeological evidence generally does not support Chronicles, so anything asserted in Chronicles is suspect without independent confirmation, and as history should be treated very cautiously.

"(these are the ones depicted in the Roman mural)."
No, the instruments depicted in the Arch of Titus sculpture (not a mural) are *much* later instruments, 700-1000 years after the purported events of Numbers.

"The answer was given by Bach himself in his commentary on Chronicles I and II that he wrote in his copy of the Calov Bible. 'The music in the services in the Temple in Jerusalem was the true foundation of all godly church music for the reason that the devotional music there was able to invoke the presence of God with His grace.'"
But this doesn't answer the question, since Chronicles is about ceremonies in David's time (and other stuff), but *not* about the trumpets in Numbers. Bach wrote nothing whatsoever about the trumpets in Numbers. The subject of inquiry here is the trumpets in Numbers, and what Bach wrote about Chronicles is irrelevant. (Another red herring; cf. the original question.)

Of course Bach, as a devout Lutheran, emphasized the iof music in worship; but there's nothing in that Bach quotation indicating anything at all about trumpets of any kind, let alone the putative Israelite trumpets 3000 years ago.

It needs to be re-emphasized again that Bach's Bible contains no comments by Bach on the passage in Numbers about the putative silver trumpets in question. From the evidence of Bach's own Biblical comments, nothing whatsoever can be concluded or inferred about Bach's thoughts on those particular trumpets described in Numbers.

"Here we see that for Bach a quote from scripture is "proof" of its truth - even from the Old Testament since according to Luther it is equivalent to the New Testament in authority."
Obviously. Bach was an orthodox Lutheran, and Lutheran doctrine holds that the Bible is the sole and infallible source of doctrine. But since Bach says nothing about the trumpets in Numbers, nothing can be concluded about his thoughts on them as related to his own music. However, Bach was a close and careful reader and wrote many detailed comments on lots of stuff; but he said nothing about the Numbers trumpets, which implies -- if anything -- that for Bach they weren't important enough to bother commenting on.

(Digression: but that doesn't warrant the conclusion that it has anything to do with the actual existence of the putative Israelite trumpets in Numbers (or that anything in the Bible must be factual ("Bach believed the Numbers trumpets existed" is reasonable (though unproductively tautological (since Bach himself probably believed everything in the Bible. ("The trumpets of Numbers existed" is just fabrication (pending discovery of real evidence (and the New Testament describes Jesus saying that the ancient Hebrew laws and customs of the Old Testament were not changed "one jot or tittle" by Jesus' coming (which, incidentally, presents some difficult problems in modern New Testament interpretation (and Bach, a careful and thorough reader, would almost certainly have been familiar with that famous passage (and, as you correctly point out, Luther held the entire Bible to be equally sacred and authoritative (and hence undoubtedly also Bach (but again, this has nothing to do with the actual existence of the putative Numbers trumpets.)))))))))))))

"See the article by Prof Michael Marissen"
Paywalled article. Here it is, de-paywalled: https://archive.ph/0s7UF

Apart from being another red herring -- perfectly irrelevant to claims about Bach and the putative trumpets of Numbers -- this NYT article is shallow and misleading, such as by misrepresenting the book Bach's Dialogue With Modernity: it *isn't* about how modern Bach is (as the NYT writer claims), but primarily about what Bach continues to mean *for us* in our modern era, founded in the historical context of Bach's time. The writer obviously just looked at the title of Butt's book and got excited, without bothering to actually read the book. And pretty much nobody thinks Bach was anything but an orthodox devout Lutheran; the NYT writer's handwaving about an imaginary conspiracy to present Bach as some kind of Spinozian-Einsteinian-scientific deist or whatever, is just bonkers.

An exception, entertaining by its extravagant silliness: Was J. S. Bach an Atheist? (Article on BCW)
Well worth a quick read for a laugh. Bach scholarship a la Monty Python.

Some genuine scholarship on Bach:

Music next to Theology: The Impact and Influence of Martin Luther's Reformation on Johann Sebastian Bach
by James H. Ryan
Cedarville University Musical Offerings: Vol. 10 : No. 2 , Article 3
https://digitalcommons.cedarville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1085&context=musicalofferings

Evangelists of the postmodern: Reconfigurations of Bach since 1985
by Harry White
Understanding Bach, 12, 85-107
https://bachnetwork.org/ub12/ub12-white.pdf

Bach's Dialogue with Modernity
by John Butt
Cambridge U Press, 2010
https://mega.nz/file/gGZ2lITI#uX7ItqK3f0X7X_f7hrPFWVX53HWWO0p_kW9CyeiikqU
(Many thanks to Bodtje at susato.blogspot.com!)

All this is very interesting but really it just confirms what we already know: Bach was a devout Lutheran, and his belief strongly inflected his life and work. Nobody claims otherwise (except that Pythonesque item cited above). The putative trumpets of Numbers don't appear to enter into Bach's thinking. He wrote comments in his Bible about many things: ships, shoes, sealing wax, and musical performances in the Temple; he was an assiduous and thorough reader, and if he'd had any substantial thoughts about those Numbers trumpets, he probably would have written something about them, too. *But he didn't.* Since Bach wrote a lot about a lot of things, the absence of any comments on the Numbers trumpets suggests that he had nothing to say about them and they didn't particularly interest him. Given the volume of his other writings about payment of musicians, the numbers of musicians that would be ideal for performances, the training of musicians, his laundry, and so on, anything prominent in Bach's mind about the Numbers trumpets would probably have been written down too.

We find nothing at all written by Bach about those putative Numbers trumpets. So although we can conclude nothing whatsoever about Bach's thoughts on those putative Numbers trumpets, we can make an educated guess that he didn't think anything important enough to bother writing down. Similarly, Bach says nothing about trumpets in his comment on Chronicles; he only mentions the general importance of devotional music. But we already knew that.

Joel Harband wrote (September 3, 2023):
[To Sneffels] Thank you for your thorough review of my mail.

I will try to answer your questions.

You wrote: "The trumpets in Numbers were NOT used in prayer.:" based on the source https://hallel.info

I stated in my first mail on this subject: These trumpets were used for communication to assemble the people and to break camp in an orderly way on a journey (Numbers 10: verses 1-8). They were also used as a kind of prayer to request God's assistance in battle and to request God's acceptance of burnt offerings (verses 9-10).

Verses 1-8 are summarized by your source https://hallel.info as "These silver trumpets have two primary purposes: to summon the congregation and to set out on their journey." This is correct. However his interpretation of verses 9-10 as a "call to battle" and to "call people to God’s appointments" leaves out an important part - the prayer to God.

To make this clear, I will try to explain the relevant biblical verses more in depth.

Verse 9: When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is oppressing you, play teruah on the trumpets and you will be remembered by the Lord your God and rescued from your enemies.
Interpretation:
https://hallel.info : The silver trumpet is also used as a call to war.
Joel: The phrase "you will be remembered by the Lord your God" means that God will hear your prayers and "rescued from your enemies" means God will take action to save you as a result of your prayers. So we have to say here that "play teruah on the trumpets" is a form of prayer. Or alternatively that the trumpet sound caused the people to pray.
So to call this just a "call to war" is to ignore the spiritual effect of the trumpets and the part played by God.

Verse 10: Also at your times of rejoicing your appointed festivals and New Moon feasts play tekiah on the trumpets over your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, and they will be a memorial for you before your God. I am the Lord your God.
Interpretation:
https://hallel.info : The silver trumpet is also used to call peto God’s appointments.
Joel: The phrase "they will be a memorial for you before your God" means that the trumpet sounds will cause God to be aware of you and take appropriate action.
So to say this is just "to call people to God’s appointments" is to ignore the spiritual effect of the trumpets and the part played by God in response.

As for your second question: "Why bring Chronicles into this?"

I brought Chronicles because this is where Bach made his comments on the music in the temple service. Bach did not comment on the section in Numbers.

We see that the trumpets in Chronicles are a continuation of the trumpets in Numbers because in both places they are the instruments played by the priests in prayer (and not by the Levites), in particular Numbers 10:8 and Chronicles 2 5:12. (I say "continuation" because although they may not have been the same exact trumpets, they were trumpets that had the same use and application and this is enough for Bach's purposes - that they were the foundation of all godly church music)

Hope this helps.

Brass Instruments in Bach's Vocal Works: Brass Instruments | Corno da caccia | Horns
Trumpets: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6 | Part 7 | Part 8 | Part 9 | Baroque D Trumpet Resonances | Bach's Compositions using trumpets or horns with timpani