Bach’s Librettists
Discussions - Part 2

Continue from Part 1

Christiana Mariana von Ziegler

Thomas Shepherd wrote (May 6, 2010):
EARLY MUSIC SHOW BBC radio3

5 Jun 2010
13:00 (BST)
Mariane von Ziegler
Catherine Bott examines Bach's cantata collaboration with author Mariane von Ziegler.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00smnw7

William L. Hoffman wrote (May 7, 2010):
Julian Mincham wrote:
< PS is anyone on list able to give a brief review of the recent book on Mariana von Ziegler by Mark Peters? >
I'll be utilizing it in the context of the Easter season cantata discussion. There is much interesting material, also I'll listen to the BBC feed.

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 7, 2010):
William L. Hoffman wrote:
< There is much interesting material, also I'll listen to the BBC feed. >
I was disappointed in the program. Lots of nice recordings of canatas with her libretti, but not much in the way of historical detail or literary analysis.

I still wonder if Anna Magdalena was ever pissed off that Sebastian took off to Christiana's salon.

"You going out again?

I'm stuck here with these kids and have to copy out your cantatas while you go flirt with that Ziegler woman!

It has to stop. For the next cantata cycle, go find some postmaster to write you poems!

Es ist genug!"

William L. Hoffman wrote (May 7, 2010):
Douglas Cowling:
< I still wonder if Anna Magdalena was ever pissed off that Sebastian took off to Christiana's salon.
"You going out again?
I'm stuck here with these kids and have to copy out your cantatas while you go flirt with that Ziegler woman!
It has to stop. For the next cantata cycle, go find some postmaster to write you poems!
Es ist genug!" >
Dear Magda: As soon as I finish this second cantata cycle, we'll take a vacation this summer, go to Weissenfels, Koethen, and Zerbst. Wish we could visit Carlsbad again.

Meanwhile, there is Friedelena Margaretha, Maria Barbara's older sister, who has taken care of all my children since 1707, as well as my oldest daughters and our children's Leipzig godparents.

I am starting a a Little Notebook for you, like the one for Friedemann. I'm also arranging a double concerto for you, with violin and oboe. Also, I am ordering some fine French wines and Swiss chocolates, and Telemann is sending you some calypso orchids. And one of these days, we'll get our home remodeled. Sebastian

Evan Cortens wrote (May 7, 2010):
William L. Hoffman wrote:
< PS is anyone on list able to give a brief review of the recent book on Mariana von Ziegler by Mark Peters?
I'll be utilizing it in the context of the Easter season cantata discussion. There is much interesting material, also I'll listen to the BBC feed. >
I've just worked my way through the entire Peters book. It's fair to say that, for anything to do with Ziegler/Bach, it's indispensable, if only because it's the most significant study of such things to date, in any language. Perhaps the only criticism I can offer is that it's only 200 pages long. The first 50 pages is an extensive biography of Ziegler herself; great reading. The final 50 pages are appendices and such. This leaves only 100 pages for a discussion of nine cantatas. Necessarily, this means that Peters covers many things by relying on representative samples. That said, I'm sure this stems in part from publisher limitations; Ashgate volumes are usually about this long.

In connection with the book, Peters's article in the journal BACH, based on chapter 2 of the dissertation on which the book is based, is also a must read. I think Peters effectively dispatches the notion that it was Bach who revised the texts. The trouble here is of course that Spitta thought many of the cantatas dates from the 1730s or 40s, well after the 1728 publication of the texts, when they in fact date from 1725, as Durr's chronology shows.

Hope this helps,

Evan Cortens wrote (May 7, 2010):
Apologies, I just realized I was confused; it was actually Julian who asked for a review of the Peters volume.

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 8, 2010):
Evan Cortens wrote:
< Apologies, I just realized I was confused; it was actually Julian who asked for a review of the Peters volume. >
>> In connection with the book, Peters's article in the journal BACH, based on chapter 2 of the dissertation on which the book is based, is also a must read. I think Peters effectively dispatches the notion that it was Bach who revised the texts. <<
Can we get this conclusion from the published Peters dissertation, article in journal BACH, or both? (Hopefully not neither!)

Thanks for the reply to Julians question; Ms. von Ziegler is an interesting topic in the (frantic?) first few years of Bachs Leipzg tenure.

Doug Cowling wrote:
< es ist genug >
Is it out of the question that she contributed to the text of the otherwise anonymous BWV 82: <Ich habe genu[n]g>? (1727, with adoption of an earlier aria, also included in the AMB notebook of 1725).

Enough of that gossip.

Julian Mincham wrote (May 8, 2010):
I've just checked the price for this book--52 quid seems a bit steep for a 200 page book? Amazon even quotes the second hand copies at over 30 quid. Anyone know of a better bargain?

Bach's Grand Plan
Sebastian & Marianne

Continue of discussion from: Bach Composing - Part 7 [General Topics]

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (October 27, 2010):
[To Julian Mincham] Maybe these are stupid questions, but if the librettist is anonymous, how do we know when he died?

And if there is not a shred of evidence that he wrote the texts of cantatas, how can we consider him a librettist?

Continue of this part of the discussion, see: Bach’s Librettists [General Topics]

Julian Mincham wrote (October 27, 2010):
[To Thérèse Hanquet] Good questions. Have a look at page 278 of Wolff's book (the Learned Musician) where he propounds the theory (although it had already been around for some time). It is KNOWN that Stübel died at that time--it is THOUGHT by some that he may have been Bach's collaborator in the first 40 cantatas of the cycle (BWV20-BWV1) but there is no supporting evidence that he was----not even a shred! ---he just seems to be a likely candidate.

If you have a look at the introduction to volume 2 on my website on the cantatas (also some of the essays from BWV 1 onwards) you will find I discuss this issue. There is as much (or as little) evidence to suggest that Bach only set out to produce a group of 40 chorale/fantasia cantatas as there is for the 'interrupted grand plan' theory.

Interestingly ,he turned to a woman for 9 (or possibly 10) of the subsequent texts Mariane von Ziegler, an fascinating person about whom a biography was published earlier this year.

Therese Hanquet wrote (October 27, 2010):
[To Julian Mincham] Thanks Julian,

I understand now that you referred to Stübel in your answer.

But it might have been someone else? Or even distinct persons?
Is there evidence (e.g. "litterary patterns") that show there was a single librettist for the first 40 cantatas?

If it was Stübel, is there a reason why he would have remained "anonymous" while it was not the case with
Mariane von Ziegler? Did libretti generally bear the name of the author? (Sorry I do not have Wolff's book...).

As I understand Ed's question, it could also be someone else who (unexpectedly?) left Leipzig at that time, and we would not necessarily have evidence for that? Other easons could be illness, conflicts (even less documented I imagine)...

And why would the anonymous librettist not be also a woman who would have not wanted her name to appear? And/or someone in Bach's family? Is that conceivable?

Evan Cortens wrote (October 27, 2010):
Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
< If it was Stübel, is there a reason why he would have remained "an" while it was not the case with Mariane von Ziegler? Did libretti generally bear the name of the author? (Sorry I do not have Wolff's book...). >
While I can't speak with absolute precision, as I'm writing off the top of my head, Bach's librettos never bear the name of their author. (Or at least I can't think of an instance where they do.) The only way that people have been able to find out who wrote them is that they're often published by the librettist himself, after the fact (or sometimes Bach draws on an already published collection). This former is the case for Picander and Mariane von Ziegler, the latter is the case for Erdmann Neumeister. In fact, the 'Ziegler' cantatas were by an unknown librettist until the late nineteenth century, when Philipp Spitta happened to bump into her first published poetry collection, which contains the nine libretti in question. A few years later, Ziegler completed the full Jahrgang, but Bach is not known to have set any of these later texts.

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 27, 2010):
Sebastian & Marianne

Evan Cortens wrote:
< A few years later, Ziegler completed the full Jahrgang, but Bach is not known to have set any of these later texts. >
The personal and professional relationship of a conservative Cantor with a feminist salonniere would make a wonderful one act play or BBC drama.

So many unanswerered questions ...

Are there more librettos among Bach's lost cantatas?

Did the relationship end for personal or professional reasons?

Did Ziegler continue to publish cantata texts to play on the association with Bach?

Was there social disapproval of the relationship?

Did Anna Magdalena have a role?

Did the church authorities disapprove of texts by a woman?

I'd like to see Helen Mirren as Ziegler and Anthon Hopkins as Bach.

Evan Cortens wrote (October 27, 2010):
[To Douglas Cowling] Fascinating questions! I think part of the issue here relates to Therese's question... did churchgoers in Leipzig even know the libretti were by Ziegler? The initial nine weren't published until 1729, two years after the cantatas were performed. There's an interesting footnote here: Spitta originally thought these cantatas dated from the 1740s, and so thought that Bach had heavily revised Ziegler's libretti. However, since it's turned out that the cantata dating was wrong, the foot is on the other shoe. It seems more likely that Ziegler revised the libretti for publication, rather than Bach for performance. See Mark Peters's article in BACH for more on this.

Speaking of Mark Peters, he makes a big point of discussing these libretti as an instance of a woman's voice in a church where it was otherwise prohibited. His recent book (Ashgate, 2008) is the one to which Julian referred earlier. The first chapter is an excellent biography of her entire career; she was incredibly successful, never mind 'for a woman.'

A lot of your questions have to do with the relationship between Bach and Ziegler.... and this is really the big hole in our knowledge. How did it come that Ziegler wrote these texts in the first place? Did Bach commission her? Did someone else? Were they written already, and Bach simply used them? (This last fits well with the theory that his previous librettist died suddenly...) No one really knows. As far as Ziegler playing off her association with Bach, again, I doubt that this was known very widely. If this were her plan, it wasn't especially successful. As far as anyone knows, no one else set any of her libretti either... (Then again, there's no grand catalogue of all eighteenth-century Lutheran cantatas!)

Ed Myskowski wrote (October 27, 2010):
Thérèse Hanquet wrote:
< Thanks Julian,
I understand now that you referred to Stübel in your answer.
But it might have been someone else? Or even distinct persons?
Is there evidence (e.g. "literary patterns") that show there was a single librettist for the >first 40 cantatas?
If it was Stübel, is there a reason why he would have remained "anonymous" while it was not the >case with Mariane von Ziegler? Did libretti generally bear the name of the author? (Sorry I do not have >Wolff's book...).
As I understand Ed's question, it could also be someone else who (unexpectedly?) left Leipzig at that time, and we would not necessarily have evidence for that? Other easons could be >illness, conflicts (even less documented I imagine)... >
Yes, that was the point of my question. It was not specific to Stubel, but rather to the interruption, apparently sudden and unexpected, of the source of librettos. Note that I asked the question in the context of Dougs specualtive five-year grand plan, and especially in support of the idea that just because Bach did not complete the plan does not mean that he never had such a plan. In particular, I notice from the current discussions, the comparisons in unusual architecture for cantatas for the Sundays after Easter from the first and second Leipzig cycles (Jahrgang I and II), in support of large-scale conceptual planning. This is exactly the kind of observation we originally hoped would come out of the current discussion format, and which is easily overlooked otherwise.

I would also like to emphasize Thereses observation that anonymous is not necessarily a single person, and point out that unknown is likely a more accurate description. Do we have any evidence that these unknown librettists were anonymous by choice, or design? In particular, are text authors identified in the surviving published booklets? Many of the known text authors are known by current research, rather because they signed any particular score. So even if they were not intentionally anonymous, where would there names have been publicized?

I did not review Wolff’s discussion at the moment, but I do recall that he endorses the idea that the unusual (and new to Bach, if not new, period) relation of libretto and chorale texts, from the beginning of Jahrgang II through the first 40 works, suggests a single author. This is also supportive (but certainly not conclusive) of an unexpected death, or other unplanned interruption. Stubel is suggested mainly because he may have been qualified, and his death certainly fits the required timing.

TH:
< And why would the anonymous librettist not be also a woman who would have not wanted her name >to appear? And/or someone in Bach's family? Is that conceivable? >
EM:
Yes, but see above. Unknown and anonymous are not exactly synonomous, although I think they are used that way in the Bach literature. In fact, it is conceivable that the group includes both truly anonymous, and simply unknown, authors.

Julian Mincham wrote (October 28, 2010):
[To Thérèse Hanquet] Most of the questions you raise remain possibilities as does the theory that Bach only set out to compose chorale cantatas up until easter in the first instance.

The fact is that any possible answers to these questions must be purely speculative. However I guess that von Ziegler is particularly remembered as the first woman to provide texts--it is generally belived that only men had done this previosly, and there is an assumption that the musical integrity of the first 40 cantatas of the cycle implies a unity and integrity of texts as well---but it is only an assumption.

Might i suggest that you put Wolff's book on a list of 'birthday and christmas presents I would like to receive!' It's good to read and worth having at hand for purposes of reference. I think the paperback edition is reasonably inexpensive now.

Ed Myskowski wrote (October 28, 2010):
Julian Mincham wrote:
< However I guess that von Ziegler is particularly remembered as the first woman to provide texts--it is generally believed that only men had done this previosly >
Of course, generally believed assumes that unknown and/or anonymous were men!

I belive some clever lady has a succesful book (not specific to Bach) with a title along the line of Anonymous Was a Woman.

Anne (Nessie) Russell wrote (October 29, 2010):
Anonymous was a Woman [was: Bach's GranPlan]

Ed Myskowski said:
< Of course, generally believed assumes that unknown and/or anonymous were men!
I believe some clever lady has a succesful book (not specific to Bach) with a title along the line of Anonymous Was a Woman. >
I haven't read the book. I will have to look it up. I agree with the premise. We know that many women have used male pen names. I have often wondered how many women have had their work published under a husband's name. I also wonder if Anna M composed.

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (October 29, 2010):
[To Nessie Russell] I agree!

I was precisely thinking about the (sad) story of Camille Claudel, whose work was long left in the shadow of her lover, Auguste Rodin (and of her brother, Paul Claudel): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Claudel

And how about Bach's daughters? They could also have had musical gifts...

Julian Mincham wrote (October 29, 2010):
[To Nessie Russell] We know that many women have used male pen names. I have often wondered how many women have had their work published under a husband's name.

One excellent example of a very accomplished and overlooked woman was Mendelssohn's sister Fanny.

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 30, 2010):
Julian Mincham wrote:
< One excellent example of a very accomplished and overlooked woman was Mendelssohn's sister Fanny. >
And Mozart's sister.

Among all those Frau and Fraülein Bachs, there must have been talent.

Hmmmm ... Perhaps Anna Magdalena visited Marianne von Ziegler to chat about the state of women in the arts.

Ed Myskowski wrote (October 30, 2010):
[To Nessie Russell] It is definitely not relevant to Bach, so drifting off-topic. Mostly specific to the contributions of women to early American culture, including anonymous artworks: samplers, quilts, etc.

If you are a feminist (as I am!), you will enjoy both the art, and the anonymity.

Ed Myskowski wrote (October 30, 2010):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Hmmmm ... Perhaps Anna Magdalena visited Marianne von Ziegler to chat about the state of women in the arts. >
Scandal in the offing? Looking for that shred of evidence, to support some speculation.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (October 30, 2010):
[To Ed Myskowski] The real tragic story with Bach's children? The girls who never had any chances or opportunities to become composers in their own right. They were more than likely had just as much talent as their more famous brothers, but due to the constraints of the circumstances of the period, we'll never know. The same idea applies to Mozart's sister too.

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 30, 2010):
[To Ed Myskowski] "Sebastian, why is there pink wig powder on your jacket?"

George Bronley wrote (October 30, 2010):
[To Douglas Cowling] Do you think that JSB had any free time to flirt?

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 30, 2010):
[To George Bromley] Well, we do know that he had a well-developed sex drive!

Julian Mincham wrote (October 30, 2010):
[To George Bromley] Unless the Rector was sneaking in while Bach was in the composing room--he must have spent a lot of time there!

George Bronley wrote (October 30, 2010):
[To Julian Mincham] no doubt composing himself for when mrs B got there.

Harry W. Crosby wrote (October 30, 2010):
All of you contributor's pertinent remarks --- plus a little general knowledge of European society during the Renaissance and thereafter --- only make more poignant the story of Barbara Strozzi, born 1619, Giulio Strozzi's illegitimate daughter, a virtual outcast from polite society, but elevated by her father to be the mistress of an inner circle of patrician Venetian music lovers --- whose collective influence may have been a major force in the publication of many of her compositions, or at least opening that door.

I find her work very strong and quite avant garde for any composer in the late 1630s to 1650s.

A lesser example of a woman fortuitously placed would be Anna Bon di Venezia, born 1740 of musical parents employed in a German court who could train her, give her a position in the court orchestra, and make it possible for three opus numbers of her compositions to be promptly published. To me, her works are charming and it is one of those historical bummers that she apparently died in her early twenties.

Julian Mincham wrote (October 30, 2010):
[To George Bromley] I don't reckon she would have interrupted him for a 'bit of that' in the composing room. I reckon JS would have finished the night's work and gone and woken her up!

Unless she too was working late copying out parts!

Would be wonderful to have a bit more insight into the private life of the busy Bachs----alas.

Marva Watson wrote (October 30, 2010):
[To Julian Mincham] I am enjoying this bit of speculation and banter about women composers. Can anyone recommend some good books/reading/papers on little known women composers? Especially their life stories, (i.e. Barbara Strozzi). Has anyone done and research or writing on the Bach women?

Evan Cortens wrote (October 30, 2010):
[To Marva Watson] It's worth noting in this context that David Yearsley has recently written a paper entitled "What is a Sängerin?" exploring exactly these sorts of things. Specifically, he imagines (no hard evidence of such a thing!) a performance of the Coffee Cantata, in which Bach's wife and daughter participate.

The paper isn't yet published, but it was discussed in a conference report for the recent "Women in Baroque Music" conference at Yale, appearing in a recent issue of Early Music.

Douglas Cowling wrote (October 30, 2010):
Julian Mincham wrote:
< Would be wonderful to have a bit more insight into the private life of the busy Bachs----alas. >
I've often wondered what AMB's public role as Frau Cantor Bach was like. As the wife of a court musician she would have had much more social and artistic freedom. She may well have had a public profile as a singer. But the collegiate church system retained much of its monastic, celibate structure in which wives had no social place (some fellowships in Oxford still require its members to be unmarried!). It must have quite a sacrifice to give up her public persona for a strictly domestic role. She may well have had no public social role. One wonders whether Bach's Notebooks are a tribute to her frustrated talents and a gracious acknowledgement of her singular contribution to the musical formation of their children.

The Role of Librettos

Douglas Cowling wrote (August 10, 2013):
Although we have little taste for the librettos which Bach set and to which he seems to have given considerable importance, their publication would seem to indicate that the cantata was as much a literary event as a musical occasion. That would underline the suggestion that an educated portion of Bach's congregation appreciated the literary aspects of his music in its forms, genres and particular word-painting.

The printing of word-books was ubiquitous in the 17th and 18th century for all vocal music, but paritcularly for oratorios and operas. James Levine fnally agreed to surtitles at the Met because of the historical evidence
that the reading of librettos was an intrinsic part of the 18^th & 19^th century operatic expereince. Only Wagner turned out the lights.

I suspect that tha librettos were part of a larger tradition of devotional reading which complemented the conventional predictability of the Sunday liturgy.

William Zeitler wrote (August 10, 2013):
[To Douglas Cowling] A practice I've adopted at my own organ post is to include a 'music box' in the bulletin: a paragraph or two about one of the pieces I'm playing. I generally avoid straight boring bios, and look for interesting anecdotes about the composer or piece that give it some context in the culture of the time or life of the composer.

I've been surprised at how popular they have been.

I hadn't thought of my 'music boxes' as being consistent with a long historical practice that goes back at least to Bach of accompanying printed materials -for Sunday morning!

To reado the 'Bach' idea I guess I could publish and sell each year's worth as a collection. Hmm.

Arthur Ness wrote (August 10, 2013):
[To Douglas Cowling] Some opera librettos were sold with candles for reading. Candle wax can still be seen on some surviving copies.

Peter Smaill wrote (August 10, 2013):
The librettos are of increasing interest due to Tatiana Shabalina's discoveries in St Petersburg, which have allowed several to be redated. However, the mysteries of authorship remain.

I'd be interested to know why several posts say the Council had to approve them. My recollection is that Rochlitz recorded that it was an ecclesiastical authority, Superintendent Deyling, (who predated and survived Bach in his 35 year tenure), who could veto them. IMHO the variety of doctrinal emphases, some crypto Calvinist, and a few texts from the Meiningen court which are nature-worshipping or pantheist (no mention of Christ happens ), indicate Deyling was quite broad minded for a Lutheran at this date.

Here is the quote from Stiller, "Johann Sebastian Bach and Liturgical life in Leipzig" p 219:

"Bach "regularly at the beginning of the week sent several (usually three) texts of his church cantatas arranged for the day and Deyling then chose one"

This report relates to the last decades of Bach's cantorate so we can interpret it as implying selection from the cycles already composed. Stiller goes on however to say that the implication is that Deyling always had this function and would have vetoed the original texts when introduced in Bach's early tenure if unhappy with them.

There is of course the banning by the Council of a performance of the St John Passion in but it is the only recorded instance we have of their interference in Bach's musical performances, and that despite the inhibition on theatricality stated at the beginning of the cantorate: completely ignored by Bach as far as we can see!

William L. Hoffman wrote (August 10, 2013):
The Role of Librettos and Literacy

[To Peter Smaill] Robin Leaver, I believe, has researched home devotional books but now is working on a collection of essays (?CUP) on the Matthew Passion. It is possible that church pastors encouraged devotional book reading, as well as the catechism for parents to teach their children. In addition, it also is possible that a pastor, presenting an annual series of emblematic sermons (see Duerr, Cantatas of JSB Intro.) on certain biblical themes, may have published them and it may be that on occasion a composer may have done an annual cycle related to these sermons. Duerr mentions Christian Weiss returning to the pulpit at Easter Season 1724, possibly for a series of emblematic sermons.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (August 10, 2013):
William L. Hoffman wrote:
< It is possible that church pastors encouraged devotional book reading, >
It's not even a question really at this point. Gotha's court library is loaded with all sorts of these books; and took it quite seriously, even if they preferred short and very direct to the point cantatas (that applies to Zerbst too, where Fasch got into trouble more than once for his cantatas being too long and had some texts rejected for religious reasons).

Douglas Cowling wrote (August 10, 2013):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< It's not even a question really at this point. Gotha's court library is loaded with all sorts of these books >
Was there any reading of devotional books DURING the service? 18^th century Catholics of course came armed with books to a Latin liturgy, but did Lutherans also read non-liturgical texts during their three-hour marathons in church?

Douglas Cowling wrote (August 10, 2013):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< they preferred short and very direct to the point cantatas (that applies to Zerbst too, where Fasch got into trouble more than once for his cantatas being too long and had some texts rejected for religious reasons). >
Which official made the ecclesiastical decision?

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (August 11, 2013):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Which official made the ecclesiastical decision? >
It came from the Duke himself (Frederick Augustus) to the court pastor "Dr Kluge." Fasch writes in a letter of 1752 the poet Uffenbach explaining he would have to split up the cantata text into two parts because "it has been made known to me..." because it was too long.

"Verwichenen Advent wurde der wirkliche Anfang mit Aufführung dieses Jahrganges [texts by Schmolck] gemacht; allein, da die Herrn Prediger eine Erinnerun bekahmen [sic], sich etwas Kürzer zu fassen, so wurde uach mir zu verstehen gegeben, dass die Music etwas zu lang wäre, welches denn zu beygefügter unterthänigster Auflage Gelegenheit gabe und die gnädigst daneben signierte Resolution obligirte mich aus einem Stück zwey zu machen, in der Mitte Choräle (wie das zweite beygefügte Büchel weisst) anzufügen und nunmehro dahin zu sorgen, dass zur anderen Hälffte Chöre woran zum Anfange ausgeführt würden."

Fasch > Friedirch von Uffenbach in Frankfurt/Main 1^st March 1752

Many thanks to Brian Clark who provided me with this information.

Douglas Cowling wrote (August 11, 2013):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< It came from the Duke himself (Frederick Augustus) to the court pastor "Dr Kluge." Fasch writes in a letter of 1752 the poet Uffenbach explaining he would have to split up the cantata text into two parts because "it has been made known to me..." because it was too long. >
My German isn't good enough to tell if the cantata is being split into two sections flanking the sermon or just one half is being performed.

Interesting to note the line of command from Duke to Dr. Kluge (!) the pastor, to Fasch the composer, to the librettist Ufenbach. That would suggest that the composer had the responsibility to find or commission librettos.

Are there any examples when Bach was given a pre-existing text and told to set it?

William L. Hoffman wrote (August 11, 2013):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Are there any examples when Bach was given a pre-existing text and told to set it? >
There are a few examples: Strophic aria, "Alles mit Gott und nichts ohn' ihn," BWV 1127, for Weimar Duke Wilhlem Ernst birthday 1713 (12 stanzas), BCW Discussion, Week of August 25, and the Gottshed Ode text for the Christiane Eberhardine funeral, October 1727 which Bach set (restructured) as Cantata BWV 198. I suspect other funeral and wedding works may have had texts already prepared, some with chosen chorale stanzas, as well as academic commissions. Some of these will be discussed later this year when we examine the secular cantatas, serenades, and drammi per musica.

Douglas Cowling wrote (August 11, 2013):
William L. Hoffman wrote:
< I suspect other funeral and wedding works may have had texts already prepared, some with chosen chorale stanzas, as well as academic commissions >
When you say texts already prepared, are you saying that Bach did not have any input into those texts?

Bach's 3rd cycle cantata author identified

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (October 10, 2015):
Christine Blanken's remarkable study of Christoph Birkmann and his relationship with Johann Sebastian Bach in Leipzig has some exciting news. A short summary of it:

"This article introduces to Bach studies a hitherto unknown publication by Christoph Birkmann dating from 1728, which has enormous implications for our understanding of the cantatas Bach performed in Leipzig between 1725 and 1727.

In spite of being in Leipzig for as little as two-and-a-half years, the publications allows us to conclude that Birkmann influenced Bach's work beyond his role as a singer or instrumentalist in Bach's choir. In 1728, the aspiring theologian, who was by then back in Franconia for a year or so, published a cycle of cantata-texts. Is was this publication that shows him to have been both a chronicler of Bach's cantata performances in Leipzig between 1725 and 1727, and he is one of Bach's hitherto unidentified librettists. The printed text allows us to close several gaps in our knowledge of the schedule of Bach's performances during this two year period. It revives hypotheses of lost cantatas from Bach's so-called "Third Annual Cycle," and it raises once more the question of Bach's Picander-settings."

Julian Mincham wrote (October 10, 2015):
Here is the link to Christine' Blanken's full paper from the BNUK conference 2015.
http://bachnetwork.co.uk/ub10/ub10-blanken.pdf

Bach and Picander

Michael K. Engstrom wrote (February 21, 2020):
One topic I have not been able to find hardly anything written or discussed about is the relationship between Bach and Picander. My question is, why did Bach, serious minded and pius, choose to collaborate with more than anyone else, a satirical poet and more cheerful man. Bach was not a lazy person as far as we can see. Obviously he spent time with his family and played music locally etc. but I would like to know more about Picander as a man and what Bach saw that was valuable in their collaboration.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (February 21, 2020):
[To Michael K. Engstrom] There is a lot on the Bach cantata website:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV145-D4.htm See
Picander Annual Cycle there.

Also: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV19-D4.htm (CTL - F) for Picander.

And this as well:
https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Picander.htm

I hope this helps you!

Aryeh Oron wrote (February 21, 2020):
[To Michael K. Engstrom] See on the BCW also:
https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Topics/Librettist.htm
http://bach-cantatas.com/Articles/SpittaPicander.pdf

Alan Brugières wrote (February 21, 2020):
[To Michael K. Engstrom] What makes you think that Picander was unworthy of Bach? You seem to be taking for granted that Bach was totally devoid of a sense of humour and that Picander was a sort of clown... Apparently Bach was quite happy to work with Picander. Do you think spending time with one's family is incompatible with being cheerful ?

In short I fail to see a contradiction where apparently you seem to see one. Could you care to explain?

Michael K. Engstrom wrote (February 22, 2020):
Thanks everyone for giving me links; I searched but could not find them!

[To Alain Bruguières] I may have not explained well enough my question. First, I think Picander is definitely worthy of Bach. His libretto is rich, meaningful, and profound. And regarding Bach's humor, I do not think whatsoever that Bach was devoid of any humor. What I meant was that he was serious minded and conscientious; focused on his music and teaching. In fact, I hope and am certain that Bach had a robust sense of humor, proven if not by his relationship with Picander etc. And also in no way am I saying that Picander was a clown, just that that fact that he was a satirical poet makes Bach's relationship with him very thought provoking and worth learning about. Actually, Bach's relationship with Picander is quite refreshing.That these men used both their immense gifts together to create an artistic and spiritual masterpiece is a very special example of what it means to fulfil your call and the collaboration of brilliant artists. It makes me more and more excited to sit down and listen, write, and meditate on Bach's cantatas. I hope that makes my question easier to understand! If you're interested please check out my blog where I publish my own thoughts and studies regarding Bach: https://thejoyofbach.blogspot.com/

Thank you very much & peace,

Julian Mincham wrote (February 22, 2020):
[To Michael K. Engstrom] It is quite possible that Bach and Picander sparked off each other with a similar sense of wit. The obvious examples of Bach's musical humour are to be found in the Coffee cantata (e.g. the irritable grumbling of the father in the one and the send up of rather poor peasant music in the instrumental introductions to the other---proving that he, like Mozart, was well able to satirise and send up bad music). Other examples include the musical representation of a donkey braying and some of the occasional odd cantata movements with three cackling oboes, that seem to side-step the seriousness of the themes with wry musical asides. Some of his musical portraits of Satan have a scurrying sense of malevolence which convey a sense of wry wit. There is also some evidence relating to the Bach family events and the singing of quodlibets with somewhat risque lyrics.

There is much about Bach that we still don't know and have to speculate about. But my conclusion is that Bach had a keen, possibly droll sense of the absurd, comic things in life.

Michael K. Engstrom wrote (February 22, 2020):
[To Julian Mincham] I would very much agree. I was going to mention the Coffee Cantata too, of which the text was written by Picander as well! But your other comments are very interesting. And you are right that most of this is speculation. Also, Bach had 20 children, half of which died, but I would imagine that such a large family would not only invoke a witty and jovial humor but also because humor is one of many remedies to some of the deep, deep grief he must have experienced. Especially after the death of Maria Barbara i.e. the Chaconne. Very interesting to think about.

Holger Hilsenitz wrote (February 22, 2020):
[To Michael K. Engstrom] I would like to draw the attention of the Musical humor with the broader Bach Family. See the following CD: Amazon.de

Jeffrey Solow wrote (February 22, 2020):
[To Michael K. Engstrom] Nobody knows if there is any truth to theory about the Chaconne reflecting Maria Barbara’s death.