Johann Kuhnau & Bach
Discussions

Kuhnaus Markuspassion

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (January 12, 2004):
Could anybody point me out a copy (recording and score) of Johann Kuhnau's Markuspassion and also (score) the Matthäuspassion of Johann Sebastiani and (score and recording) Johann Walther?

Marten Breuer wrote (January 12, 2004):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.] AFAIK, there are no recordings of thouse passions. Some time ago, I made a compilation of passion recordings available on CD and I found none of those you are interested in.

David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (January 14, 2004):
[To Marten Breuer] What about the scores, though?

I do know of a recording of the Sebastiani Matthäuspassion (Ricercar Consort) and have ages ago seen one of Walther's Matthaeuspassion.

Kuhnau's biblical sonatas

Bradley Lehman wrote (April 20, 2004):
Barry wrote:
<< Very interesting that you mention Butt's Kuhnau recording. I have been seriously considering buying it, as I have nothing by Kuhnau or by Butt. Is it really a yawn fest? >>
Leila Batarseh wrote:
< I bought it for a similar reason - I couldn't find any other recordings of the biblical sonatas, and the 2nd disc seemed like a nice bonus. And perhaps I exaggerated slightly - there were a few bits I liked - but overall I tended to find myself thinking that the music might have been rather delightful if it had only been performed in an entirely different manner. It just seemed plodding and heavy-handed. I listened to it twice, trying to give it a chance, then put it away and haven't listened to it since. I realize this is getting off topic, but can anybody recommend any good Kuhnau recordings? Does anyone have a higher opinion of Butt, based on other recordings? >
Leila (and others), what's the 2^nd disc? I bought John Butt's Kuhnau album when it was just a single CD.

Offhand I can't think of better recordings of all 6 of these sonatas as a set, although I recall that the Leonhardt LP (from early in his career) was pretty good and included spoken narration. Of just the second sonata, the one about Saul and David, I like Joan Benson's recording on clavichord. I wrote more about that sometime last year; check the archives of this list.

The music does come across better (IMO, of course) if it's played with more flair and chance-taking than Butt gave it in this recording, more attention to its wild and quick shifts of emotion as the stories are illustrated in music. This is melodrama, in one of the earlier senses of that word. But his technique and articulation are very good, and one could do a lot worse.

Also, I think the music would benefit from a more unequal temperament than he has used here...something closer to the modified or regular meantones (and French/Italian temperament ordinaire) as I demonstrated once in a comparative lecture, playing excerpts from these sonatas on several different temperaments. In the rather tame well-temperaments he uses here, the contrasts from modulation are minimized. It's an excellent exercise to go through these pieces at a keyboard in spicier temperaments, looking for the ways in which Kuhnau has used (or dodged) the wolf and employed wrong enharmonics, for effects that make dramatic sense. [Ditto for young Bach's emulation of these pieces: his Capriccio in B-flat, BWV 992...which he wrote just a few years after Kuhnau published these, 1700.]

That is to say, Leila, I agree with you: I don't listen to this CD very much anymore either, although I'm glad to have it. The pieces do have a lot to offer. I think spoken narration would have helped, too, although it might put off speakers of a different language.

As for flair and catching the Stylus phantasticus, Butt's playing has improved in that regard since that Kuhnau project (September 1994). His playing of the Bach toccatas 564, 565, 538, 540, and the Schübler Chorales 645-650 is brilliant, improvisatory, spectacular, really engaging. And there's a spot in his performance of 565 that REALLY stands out...you'll have to run the laser back over it ten times in a row, that "wow" effect. That one's from January 2000. I haven't yet heard his recording of the trio sonatas (as John Pike asked, on BachCantatas).

Fans of instrumental melodrama should also not miss Marin Marais' composition for viola da gamba and continuo, detailing the experience of having a gall bladder operation. But that one's later, 1725.

Leila Batarseh wrote (April 20, 2004):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
< Leila (and others), what's the 2nd disc? I bought John Butt's Kuhnau album when it was just a single CD. >
It's 7 sonatas called "Fresh Keyboard Fruits", played on harpsichord. He seems to me to play these with even less flair than the biblical sonatas - maybe because he's just better on the organ - that is his primary instrument, right? At any rate, if you don't play the other disc much, I don't think you'll want to rush out and get this, unless you just want any recording at all of these sonatas. But maybe someone else has better things to say about it?

< As for flair and catching the Stylus phantasticus, Butt's playing has improved in that regard since that Kuhnau project (September 1994). His playing of the Bach toccatas 564, 565, 538, 540, and the Schübler Chorales 645-650 is brilliant, improvisatory, spectacular, really engaging. And there's a spot in his performance of 565 that REALLY stands out...you'll have to run the laser back over it ten times in a row, that "wow" effect. That one's from January 2000. I haven't yet heard his recording of the trio sonatas (as John Pike asked, on BachCantatas). >
Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for these - I'd hate to write someone good off on the basis of a couple of cds. After all, even my favorite musicians have made recordings I find less than thrilling. Do you by any chance know his Frescobaldi recording? I see that all the time in cut-out bins and used record stores.

< Fans of instrumental melodrama should also not miss Marin Marais' composition for viola da gamba and continuo, detailing the experience of having a gall bladder operation. But that one's later, 1725. >
Geez, that's worse than some of Froberger's "programmatic" works. (I'm sorry to have to admit that I get the giggles every time M. Blancheroche tumbles down the stairs, surely not the effect Froberger had in mind.)

Bradley Lehman wrote (April 20, 2004):
<< Fans of instrumental melodrama should also not miss Marin Marais' composition for viola da gamba and continuo, detailing the experience of having a gall bladder operation. But that one's later, 1725. >>
< Geez, that's worse than some of Froberger's "programmatic" works. (I'm sorry to have to admit that I get the giggles every time M. Blancheroche tumbles down the stairs, surely not the effect Froberger had in mind.) >
Yeah, him and Fritz Wunderlich.

You don't like Froberger's piece about getting mugged, or the other one about a queasy boat trip? :)

I sort of like the one where the king dies and rides the rising scale all the way to the top of [some] keyboards. And in the illuminated manuscript of that, there's a nice drawing of clouds and the notes go right into it.

Nope, I haven't yet heard Butt's disc of Frescobaldi.

Leila Batarseh wrote (April 21, 2004):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
< You don't like Froberger's piece about getting mugged, or the other one about a queasy boat trip? :) >
Oh dear, I didn't mean that the way it sounded - Froberger is a great favorite of mine, and I certainly do like the programmatic works. By "worse" I really just meant "wackier", and I am by no means averse to wackiness in music.

< I sort of like the one where the king dies and rides the rising scale all the way to the top of [some] keyboards. And in the illuminated manuscript of that, there's a nice drawing of clouds and the notes go right into it. >
I like it too. In fact, unlike the aforementioned fall down the stairs, I find the rising scale device in this piece quite touching. And I'm always amazed anew that something in c major can was a lament - it has a sort of gentle, innocent sadness that is really effective.

Kuhnau's biblical sonatas

Jean-Pierre Grivois wrote (September 11, 2006):
Could somebody tell me where I can find the texts and authors of Kuhnau Cantatas?

Thanks.

Thomas Braatz wrote (September 11, 2006):
Jean-Pierre Grivois wrote:
>>Could somebody tell me where I can find the texts and authors of Kuhnau Cantatas?<<
The MGG1 (Bärenreiter, 1986, article on Kuhnau by Friedrich Wilhelm Riedel) indicates that: "Die Libretti sind teilweise erhalten, da Kuhnau in Leipzig den Brauch einführte, die Texte für die sonn- und festtägliche Kirchen-Musik. im voraus drucken zu lassen."

"Some of the libretti have been preserved since Kuhnau introduced the custom of having the texts for the figural music performed on Sundays and Feastdays printed ahead of time."

And regarding the actual music for Kuhnau's cantatas, etc.:

>>Von Kuhnaus umfangreichem, ursprünglich wohl mehrere Jahrgänge de tempore-Kirchen-Musik umfassendem Vokalschaffen ist nur ein kleiner Bruchteil erhalten, dessen Echtheit nicht einmal in allen Fällen gesichert ist.<<

("Of all of Kuhnau's comprehensive figural music output probably consisting originally of several yearly, de-tempore cantata cycles only a small fraction has been preserved and even these few compositions cannot all be definitely ascribed to him.")

The only source of cantata titles probably based mainly upon the printed booklets of texts that Kuhnau had prepared is the following:

>>B.F. Richter, in "Monatshefte für Musikgeschichte", 34 (1902), pp.176ff "Verzeichnis von Kirchenmusiken Johann Kuhnau's aus den Jahren 1707-1721"<<

("A listing of Johann Kuhnau's figural music from 1707-1721")

Regarding his tenure as Thomaskantor (among other positions he held), the above author relates that the Leipzig City Council preferred him to four other candidates "even though he was rather plain and unsightly in appearance". During his tenure as Thomaskantor, Kuhnau rarely used any music by other composers but rather preferred to compose and perform his own figural music.

Kuhnau maintained a very strict division between the established styles of composition and performance (Church-, Chamber-, and Opera/Theater-Style):

"Er hielt sich dabei streng an die von M. Scacchi begründete Stillehre, die vornehmlich in der zweiten Hälfte des 17. Jahrhunderts Geltung hatte und vom Komponisten eine scharfe Trennung der einzelnen Stile und ihrer Abarten verlangte. Hieraus erklärt sich einerseits Kuhnaus ablehnende Haltung gegenüber allen opernhaften Elementen in der Kirchen-Musik...."

"He followed [in composing and performing] strictly M. Scacchi's doctrine of musical styles, a doctrine which held sway in the second half of the 17^th century and demanded that a composer make a sharp distinction between the individual style types and their sub-categories. This explains, on the one hand, Kuhnau's attitude of disapproval towards all operatic elements in figural music intended for use as church music...."

Johann Adolph Scheibe (1708-1776) [this is the same Scheibe involved in the Scheibe-Birnbaum controversy regarding Bach's abilities as a composer] "zählt ihn mit Keiser, Telemann und Händel zu den vier größten deutschen Komponisten" ("counts him [Kuhnau] among the four greatest German composers along with Keiser, Telemann and Handel").

Jean-Pierre Grivois wrote (September 11, 2006):
[To Thomas Braatz] Thanks a lot, Thomas

KUHNAU's and ZELENKA's

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (May 19, 2008):
I have just listened for the first time in a long time to the Kuhnau and one of the two Zelenka Magnificats on the Suzuki CD which Kim referenced.Indeed the Zelenka works (at least the soprano one; the other has also alto) are nice and pleasant uncomplicated works.

The Kuhnau is very reminiscent of the Bach (K's written of course earlier), as the notes point out. One does not require the notes to point this out.

Basically you have alternating mvts. of with/without tromba and timpani and the whole is a very interesting work with four soloists and chorus and multiple mvts.

I have a question forever and i am sure, just like everything else, it has been discussed before. Bach's Magnificat has a mvt. Suscepit Israel with two sopranos and one alto. How do the many recordings with a single soprano handle this mvt.?

I am glad that Alain and hopefully Doug are postponing funeral plans.

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 19, 2008):
Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote:
< I have a question forever and i am sure, just like everything else, it has been discussed before. Bach's Magnificat has a mvt. Suscepit Israel with two sopranos and one alto. How do the many recordings with a single soprano handle this mvt.? >
Bach calls for five soloists: S1, S2, A, T, B corresponding to the five-part chorus (tutti or OVPP). The work is almost invariably performed with an SATB quartet: the alto sings the S2 aria, "Et exultavit", and the choir sings the Trio, "Suscepit". That's the "tradition". The same problem holds for the Mass in B Minor (BWV 232) where a quartet usually covers the quintet that Bach asks for.

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote (May 19, 2008):
[To Douglas Cowling] Thanks for the facts. Too bad. Most of my personal recordings of the Bach Magnificat have s1, s2, a, t, b. Funny to me that Jennie Tourel is s2 but she was not a deep mezzo. She was the first mezzo at the met to do Rosina in its proper tessitura. However here she serves as s2. As I recall, Oberlin was the alto. Many of the Messe in h-moll recordings I have have two basses, one a bass-baritone and one a true bass. Is that the quintet you are speaking of or are you referring to a written two sopranos who should sing simultaneously? Then the bass matter is just a matter of suitability.

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 19, 2008):
Bach & Peers [was: K&Z allcaps]

Yoël L. Arbeitman wrote:
>The Kuhnau is very reminiscent of the Bach (K's written of course earlier), as the notes point out.<
Sincere thanks for responding to my request. I do not need an additional version (even Suzuki) of the Bach (BWV 243), but worth getting for the K&Z (sounds like a polka?), plus notes. I expect this will be an ongoing and productive thread, so I will defer further comment, awaiting further evidence.

>I am glad that Alain and hopefully Doug are postponing funeral plans.<
Why am I reminded of Sartre, No Exit? I will be waiting on the stoop, mes amis.

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 19, 2008):
[To Yoël L. Arbeitman] Bach's vocal dispositions, especially in the Missa section, are rarely observed even in HIP performance and almost never in "modern" performances which use an SATB quartet.

KYRIE

Christe - S1 & S2 - not alto

GLORIA

Laudamus Te - S2 - not alto, usaully sung by the only soprano although some altos do attempt it,

Domine Deus - S1 & T - 1st appearance of S1

Qui Sedes - A - 1st appearance of A

Quoniam - B

The disposition changes rather oddly in the Credo.

Et in Unum - S & T -- no distinctiion between S1 & S2

I'm using my old Kalmus full score so I'm not sure if it represents the actual score.

Certainly the Missa is very close in disposition to the Magnificat in all aspects of its scoring.

Thérèse Hanquet wrote (May 19, 2008):
[To Douglas Cowling] I have a recording of the Magnificat (and BWV 80) conducted by Herreweghe (Harmonia Mundi, 2000), and "Suscepit Israel" is performed by 3 outstanding soloists: Barbara Schlick, Agnès Mellon and Gérard Lesne. It is just wonderful.

With two soprano friends we are precisely working on this trio (rehearsal this morning...) and hope singing it at a mass in June. Needless to say, we do not hope to reach such pe! Not only is intonation difficult, but also breath control in some parts, and balance between the three voices... all things that I guess are easier to manage within a choir.

Bradley Lehman wrote (May 19, 2008):
B minor Mass and D Magnificat (was KUHNAU's and ZELENKA's)

[About the B minor mass (BWV 232):]
< Bach's vocal dispositions, especially in the Missa section, are rarely observed even in HIP performance and almost never in "modern" performances which use an SATB quartet.
KYRIE
Christe - S1 & S2 - not alto
GLORIA
Laudamus Te - S2 - not alto, usaully sung by the only soprano although some altos do attempt it,
Domine Deus - S1 & T - 1st appearance of S1 >
S1 already sang in the Christe...and of course in all the "choruses" too....

By the way, the "Qui tollis" (missing from this list) is S2, A, T, B; no S1. Ditto for the "Crucifixus" coming up in part 2: S2, A, T, B; no S1.

< Qui Sedes - A - 1^st appearance of A >
...other than singing in the "choruses"...

< Quoniam - B
The disposition changes rather oddly in the Credo.
Et in Unum - S & T -- no distinction between S1 & S2 >
The "Et in Unum" is S1 & A.

< I'm using my old Kalmus full score so I'm not sure if it represents the actual score. >
Reporting from the incipits in BWV (Kleine Ausgabe, 1998), here.

< Certainly the Missa is very close in disposition to the Magnificat in all aspects of its scoring. >
A good observation. And in that one, "Et exsultavit" is S2, "Quia respexit" is S1, and "Suscepit Israel" is the trio of S1 & S2 & A.

In the earlier version of that Magnificat, when it was in E-flat instead of D, the "Virga Jesse" movement in there is a duet for S1 & B.

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 19, 2008):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
< A good observation. And in that one, "Et exsultavit" is S2, "Quia respexit" is S1, and "Suscepit Israel" is the trio of S1 & S2 & A.
In the earlier version of that Magnificat, when it was in E-flat instead of D, the "Virga Jesse" movement in there is a duet for S1 & B. >
Thanks for the corrections, Brad. I really must get a better full score and learn not to extract information at 2 am!

Has any scholarship been done on the reason Bach shifted to an SSATB disposition instead of the more usual SATB configuration in these works?

Zelenka and Kuhnau files uploaded

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 19, 2008):
Aryeh has uploaded the sample files to the website for your listening enjoyment:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Mus/Kuhnau-Mus.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Mus/Zelenka-Mus.htm

I hope you enjoy them,

Kuhnau's influence on Bach

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 19, 2008):
Ed asked about some more factual information on the influence of Kuhnau's music on Bach's cantatas. From the Grove's article on Kuhnau:

[quote]
More than half of Kuhnau's known vocal compositions, of which there were originally over 100, have been lost, and of those known to be extant only a handful have been published in modern editions (see Rimbach, however, for transcriptions of almost all the church cantatas). Critical opinion has generally dismissed the cantatas as routine and uninspired, though competently composed. Such judgments are not borne out by the music itself. While Kuhnau's cantatas are to some extent modelled on those of Knüpfer and Schelle, his predecessors at the Thomaskirche, they are on the whole simpler in style, at least in their melodic and harmonic elements. But they are far from mediocre; on the contrary, most of them are strikingly beautiful and often dramatic. They show a stability of formal structure previously unknown in German cantatas that strongly anticipates the Leipzig cantatas of Bach (Kuhnau's successor as Thomaskantor). The cantatas usually begin with an instrumental introduction (designated `sonata') followed by an alternation, in the solo works, of aria and recitative or, in the choral works, of chorus, aria and recitative in various orders. Many of the arias, though brief, have a da capo structure and are markedly more lyrical than the songlike movements found in earlier German cantatas. Some of the cantatas open and close with chorales, a few of which are given instrumental concertato settings. The chorale, however, plays only a minor role in Kuhnau's conception of the cantata, and only two of the extant works are true chorale cantatas. The most impressive elements in the cantatas with chorus are the elaborately constructed choral movements, which include frequent dramatic shifts between homophonic sections and powerful, often complex fugues; such a structure gives various kinds of rhetorical emphasis to the poetic texts (a number of which are by Neumeister). In these works Kuhnau created a musical oratory which, according to his own detailed comments regarding cantata texts (see Richter: `Eine Abhandlung'), was uppermost in his mind in his efforts to write church music that was untainted by the tendency towards the secularism arising from the growing popularity of opera.

Kuhnau is also important for his informative, highly amusing novel, Der musicalische Quack-Salber, which he modelled on Weise's Politische Quacksalber. The story concerns the life of a pompous, ill-trained musical charlatan in 17^th-century Germany. His adventures in various social settings contemporary with Kuhnau's own life prompted fascinating observations about the social status of musicians, various musical practices that Kuhnau criticized by means of satire (for example faulty text underlay, over-elaborate thoroughbass realizations, the questionable art of the castrato and the general ignorance of singers) and musical institutions, such as a description of a collegium musicum. The book is of great value to an understanding of the musical and social history of the Baroque period in Germany.

[end quote]

Kuhnau's Sacred Music:
=======================

german sacred vocal
dates are of first known performance; some edited in Rimbach I (etc.) Christmas/Easter first (etc.) day of Christmas/Easter Trinity/Epiphany/Easter I (etc.) first (etc.) Sunday after Trinity/Epiphany/Easter
Ach dass Hülfe aus Zion käme (I Christmas), 25 Dec 1709, D-LEm (text only); Ach Herr, wie sind meiner Feinde so viel, 2vv, 2 clarinos, trbn, 2 vn, bc, Bsb; Also hat Gott die Welt geliebet (Whit Monday), 25 May 1711, LEm (text only); Also werden die letzten die ersten sein (Septuagesima), 16 Feb 1710, LEm (text only); Christ lag in Todesbanden, 4vv, 2 vn, 2 va, vle, 2 cornetts (ad lib), org, 1693 or earlier, Bsb, ed. H. Fishback (Glen Rock, NJ, n.d.); Daran erkennen wir, dass wir in ihm verbleiben (Whit Sunday), 5vv, 2 ob, bn, 2 clarinos, timp, 2 vn, 2 va, org, Bsb; Das Alte ist vergangen, 4vv, 2 clarinos, bn, timp, 2 vn, va, bc, B-Bc; Der Herr, dein Gott wird selber mit dir wandeln (II Easter), 6 April 1711, D-LEm (text only); Dies ist der Tag der heiligen Dreyfaltigkeit (Trinity Sunday), 31 May 1711, LEm (text only); Du Arzt in Israel (Trinity XVII), Leipzig Nikolaikirche Archive (text only); Du weisst, mein Gott, dass ich dich liebe, III Christmas, 27 Dec 1710, LEm (text only); Du wirst, mein Heyland, aufgenommen (Ascension), 14 May 1711, Bibliothek des Vereins für die Geschichte Leipzigs (text only)
Ende gut und alles gut (Trinity XXVII), date unknown, LUC; Erschrick mein Hertz vor dir (Trinity XIV), 1v, chorus 4vv, 2 vn, violetta, org, before 1712, LEm; Es steh Gott auf (Easter), 5vv, chorus 5vv, 2 clarinos, tamburi, 3 trbn, 2 va, bc, 1703, Dl (doubtful); Fleuch, mein Freund, und sei gleich einem Reh (Sunday after New Year), 5 Jan 1710, LEm (text only); Flöss mir von deinen süssen Lehren (Epiphany I), 11 Jan 1711, LEm (text only); Fürchtet euch nicht für denen, die den Leib tödten (II Christmas), 26 Dec 1709, LEm (text only); Für uns ein Mensch gebohren (Christmas), 27 Dec 1720, Bibliothek des Vereins für die Geschichte Leipzigs (text only); Gott der Vater, Jesus Christus, der Heil'ge Geist wohn uns bey, 4vv, ob (tromba da tirarsi), 2 vn, va, bc, Bsb; Gott sei mir gnädig (Quinquagesima), 4vv, chorus 4vv, 2 vn, 2 va, bn, bc, 22 Feb 1705, Dl, ed. in DDT, lviii-lix (1918/R); Himmel, bricht der Abgrund auf? (pts.i-iii) (I-III Easter), 1717, Leipzig Nikolaikirche Archive (text only)
Ich freue mich im Herrn (Epiphany II), 4vv, 2 vn, va, bc, 17 Jan 1712, Dl, ed. in DDT, lviii-lix (1918/R); Ich habe Lust abzuscheiden (Purification), 4vv, chorus 4vv, ob, bn, 2 vn, va, vc, bc, lost (doubtful), ed. in Organum, i/14 (Leipzig, 1928); Ich hebe meine Augen auff, 1v, 2 vn, vle, org, LEm (text only) (also attrib. Telemann); Ich ruf zu dir Herr Jesu, 4vv (St Matthew), 10 insts, lost; Ich unterrede mich mit deinem Hertzen (III Easter) 1711, LEm (text only); Ich will aufstehen und in der Stadt umhergehen (Epiphany I), 12 Jan 1710, LEm (text only); Ich will dich erhöhen, mein Gott (Circumcision), 1 Jan 1711, LEm (text only); Ihr Himmel jubilirt von oben (Ascension), 5vv, 2 fl, 3 clarinos, 2 vn, va, bc, 6 May 1717, LEm; Ist denn keine Salbe in Gilead? (Epiphany III), 26 Jan 1710, LEm (text only); Jesu, hier ist deine Stadt (Trinity XIX), Leipzig Nikolaikirche Archive (text only)
Kommt her und sehet an die Werke des Herrn (Sunday after Christmas), 28 Dec 1710, LEm (text only); Kündlich gross ist das gottseelige. Geheimnis (New Year), 1 Jan 1721, Bibliothek des Vereins für die Geschichte Leipzigs (text only); Leite mich in Liebesseilen (Trinity XVIII), Leipzig Nikolaikirche Archive (text only); Lobe den Herrn meine Seele (Trinity VII), 2vv, vn, ob, org, 19 July 1722, Dl; Lobe den Herrn meine Seele, 5vv, 2 cornetts, 3 trbn, bn, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, Bsb; Lobet, ihr Himmel, den Herrn (Ascension), 4vv, 2 ob, 2 clarinos, timp, 2 vn, 2 va, org, Bsb; Mache dich auff, werde Licht (Epiphany), 6 Jan 1710, LEm (text only); Mein Alter kommt, ich kann nicht sterben, 5vv, 2 vn, 2 va, bn, bc, 1696, Dl; Michael, wer ist wie Gott? (St Michael), Leipzig Nikolaikirche Archive (text only); Muss nicht der Mensch auf dieser Erden, 1v, clarino, bn, vn, org, 1715, LUC
Nicht nur allein am frohen Morgen (II Christmas), 4vv, 2 clarinos, 2 hn, timp, 2 vn, va, bc, 26 Dec 1718, LEm; O heilige Zeit, wo Himmel, Erd und Lufft, 2vv, 2 ob, 2 vn, va, bc, LEm (doubtful); O heilige Zeit, wo Himmel, Erd und Luft, 4vv, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, Bsb; O mehr als englisches Gesichte (I Christmas), 25 Dec 1710, LEm (text only); O süssester Jesu, o freundliches Kind (Epiphany I), Bibliothek des Vereins für die Geschichte Leipzigs (text only); Passion according to St Mark (Good Friday), 11 April 1721, lost, formerly RUS-KA (inc.); Redet unter einander von Psalmen und Lobgesängen (New Year), 1 Jan 1721, Bibliothek des Vereins für die Geschichte Leipzigs (text only); Sammle dir, getreue Seele (I Easter), 5 April 1711, D-LEm (text only); Sanffter Wind, beliebtes Brausen (Whit Sunday), 24 May 1711, LEm (text only); Schmücket das Fest mit Meyen, 4vv, 2 rec, 4 vn, violetta, bc, Bsb; Seyd willkommen, frohe Stunden (Sunday after New Year), 5 Jan 1721, Bibliothek des Vereins für die Geschichte Leipzigs (text only)
Siehe da, ich lege einen auserwehlten, köstlichen Edelstein (Sunday after Christmas), 29 Dec 1709, LEm (text only); Siehe, es kommt ein Tag, der brennen soll (Epiphany V), 9 Feb 1710, LEm (text only); Siehe, ich komme, im Buch ist von mir geschrieben (Quinquagesima), 2 March 1710, LEm (text only); Siehe, ich will meinen Engel senden (Purification), 2 Feb 1710, LEm (text only); Siehe, ich will mich meiner Heerde selbst annehmen (Whit Tuesday), 26 May 1711, LEm (text only); Singet dem Herrn ein neues Lied, 4vv, 2 tpt, bn, 2 vn, va, org, Bsb; Thue mir auff, liebe Freundin (1st Sunday in Advent), 1 Dec 1709, LEm (text only); Träum ich nicht, so spricht mein Jesus (Sunday after New Year), 4 Jan 1711, LEm (text only); Um deines Tempels Willen zu Jerusalem (Epiphany), 6 Jan 1711, LEm (text only); Und ist ein Kind geboren (I Christmas), 25 Dec 1720, Bibliothek des Vereins für die Geschichte Leipzigs (text only); Und ob die Feinde Tag und Nacht (Trinity XXIII), 1v, vn, org, LEm Vermischte Traurigkeit und Freude (Easter III), 26 April 1711, LEm (text only); Vom Himmel hoch, da komm ich her, 4vv, 2 clarinos, timp, 2 vn, va, bc, LEm; Was betrübst du dich meine Seele (Epiphany I), 12 Jan 1710, LEm (text only); Weicht ihr Sorgen aus dem Hertzen (Trinity VII/XV), 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, org, LUC; Welt adieu, ich bin dein müde (Trinity XXIV), 5vv, fl, ob, 2 hn, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, LEm (inc.); Wenn ihr fröhlich seid an euren Festen (Easter), 5vv, chorus 5vv, 2 clarinos, `principale', trbn, tamburi, bn, 2 vn, 2 va, org, 1716, Dl, ed. in DDT, lviii-lix (1918/R); Wer Ohren hat zu hören (Sexagesima), 23 Feb 1710, LEm (text only); Wie gross ist deine Güte, Gott (Easter IV), 3 May 1711, LEm (text only); Wie schön leuchtet der Morgenstern, 5vv, 2 vn, 2 va, 2 hn, bc, Bsb, ed. in DDT, lviii-lix (1918/R); Wiltu, mein Gott, diss Hertz verlassen (II Christmas), 26 Dec 1710, LEm (text only); Zeuch mich nach dir, so laufen wir (III Christmas), 27 Dec 1709, LEm (text only)

latin sacred vocal
dates are of first known performance
Missa, 4vv, lost, formerly D-MÜG
Missa, lost, formerly MY
Magnificat, 5vv, 2 ob, 3 clarinos, timp, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, Bsb
Bone Jesu, chare Jesu (13th Sunday after Trinity), 1v, 2 vn, bc, 6 Aug 1690, Dl; In dulci jubilo (Sunday after Christmas), 29 Dec 1720, LEm (text only); In te Domine speravi (23rd Sunday after Trinity), 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, bn, bc, Dl; Laudate pueri, 1v, 2 vn, trbn (va da gamba/vc), bc, Bsb; Spirate clementes, 3vv, 2 vn, bc, Bsb; Tristis est anima mea, 5vv, Bsb

occasional
German; some edited in Rimbach
Ach Gott, wie lästu mich erstarren, aria, 5vv, bc, D-ZI [for burial of Rektor Titius, Zittau, 19 May 1681]; Der Herr erhöre dich in der Not, with Verleih uns Frieden, 2 choirs, lost [for election of Zittau town council, 1682]; Der Herr hat Zion erwehlet, LEm (text only) [for Leipzig University jubilee, 4 Dec 1709]; Der Herr ist Gott, der uns erleuchtet, lost [for dedication of new altar in Leipzig Thomaskirche, 25 Dec 1721]; Deutsches Te Deum, 3 choirs, tpts, timp, lost (probably by Kuhnau) [for Reformation Jubilee, 1717]; Dies ist der Tag, den der Herr gemacht hat, LEm (text only) [for Leipzig University jubilee, 4 Dec 1709]; Erschallt, Gott zu loben, lost [for investiture of Superintendent Deyling, Leipzig Nikolaikirche, 13 Aug 1721]; Herr, der Feinde sind zu viel, Leipzig Nikolaikirche Archive (text only) [for Leipzig Evangelische Kirche jubilee, 2 Nov 1717]; Tobet, ihr Pforten der Hölle, LEm (text only) [for Leipzig Evangelische Kirche jubilee, 1717]; Trauerkantate, lost [on the death of Rektor Titius, 18 April 1714]; Zion auf ermuntre dich, Leipzig Nikolaikirche Archive [text only) (for Leipzig Evangelische Kirche jubilee, 1717]

Latin
Confitebor tibi, lost [for ded. of new anatomical theatre, 10 Sept 1704]; Ecce quam bonum et iucundum, lost (probably by Kuhnau) [for performance before the oration of Prof. B. Mencke, 6 Aug 1707]; Hodie collaetantur coeli cives (Christmas Day), 25 Dec 1709, LEm (text only) [for performance after the oration]; I, Fama, pennas indice praepetes, ode, lost [for performance after the oration of Prof. B. Mencke, 6 Aug 1707]; Non mortui laudabunt te, lost [for performance after the oration at the dedication of new anatomical theatre, 10 Sept 1704]; Oda secularis, tibi litamus, lost (probably by Kuhnau) [for Leipzig University jubilee, 4 Dec 1709]; Ode, 3 choirs, lost (probably by Kuhnau) [for wedding celebration of Elector-Prince Friedrich August and Maria Josepha of Austria, 8 Sept 1719]; Salve, theatrum, splendida funerum, ode, lost [for dedication of new anatomical theatre, 10 Sept 1704]; Summe terrarum moderator, ode, lost [for dedication of new anatomical theatre, 10 Sept 1704]; Verbum caro factum est (Christmas Day), 25 Dec 1709, LEm (text only) [for performance before the oration]


Hope this helps!

Bradley Lehman wrote (May 19, 2008):
Kuhnau's melodramatic little "Biblical Sonatas" were probably a model for Bach's B-flat Capriccio.

Furthermore, Kuhnau wrote several sets of "Clavier-Übung". Bach took the wording from those title pages and updated it into the words on his own WTC title page (schmoozing his potential employers?). He showed that he would surpass Kuhnau, continuing Kuhnau's important work as teacher, if he himself got the Leipzig job. He would provide pedagogical music in not only *most of* the "Ut re mi" and "Re mi fa" scales, as the esteemed incumbent Kuhnau had done, but all 24 of them.

Douglas Cowling wrote (May 19, 2008):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< Kuhnau is also important for his informative, highly amusing novel, Der musicalische Quack-Salber, >
Is there an English translation of the novel? I never get the jokes when the verb is at the end.

Ed Myskowski wrote (May 19, 2008):
Bradley wrote:
>Kuhnau's melodramatic little "Biblical Sonatas" were probably a model for Bach's B-flat Capriccio.<
There is hardly anything in life so gratifying as asking a specific question and getting a specific response!

>Furthermore, Kuhnau wrote several sets of "Clavier-Übung". Bach took the wording from those title pages and updated it into the words on his own WTC title page (schmoozing his potential employers?).<
I see where you are going, Dude. richter.

>He showed that he would surpass Kuhnau, continuing Kuhnau's important work as teacher, if he himself got the Leipzig job. He would provide pedagogical music in not only most of the "Ut re mi" and "Re mi fa" scales, as the esteemed incumbent Kuhnau had done, but all 24 of them.<

I also see Kims post (not yet read in detail), including:
>Kuhnau is also important for his informative, highly amusing novel, Der musicalische Quack-Salber, which he modelled on Weise's Politische Quacksalber. The story concerns the life of a pompous, ill-trained musical charlatan in 17^th-century Germany.<
This thread evolved because of several of us listening, thinking, and questioning thoughtfully. I think.

I thoroughly enjoy every bit of it, including the struggles to recognize agreement (?).

Especially delicious:
(1) Brad notices the <occasional student composition> assertion.
(2) My ears perk up, Brad sends me back to the source.
(3) I notice the Kuhnau connection (<models for Sunday cantatas>)
(4) Which fits a point Kim is elaborating. Bachs friends and peers.

Brads response is precise and responsive (I hope Terejia is following), as to a specific example of Bach modelling on Kuhnau. It leaves BBC hanging in the wind (ACE), as to a specific cantata example, but I am patient.

The general principle, that Bach was influenced by Kuhnau, is obvious (other than the casual use of the words <principle> and <obvious>). I do like Brads suggestion that the <influence> was for Bach to demonstrate his superiority. No <aloha> in those days.

James Atkins Pritchard wrote (May 20, 2008):
Douglas Cowling wrote:
< Is there an English translation of the novel? I never get the jokes when the verb is at the end. >
yes
* http://tinyurl.com/5fud5k *

Recent Scholarship on Kuhnau

Douglas Cowling wrote (April 1, 2009):
A festshrift on Lutheran music with chapters by Leaver and Wolff. The article on the sacred music of Kuhnau by Evangeline Rimbach is excerpted and can be read online. Click on her name:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=oVKHZaLFUkAC

"Thine the amen: essays on Lutheran church music in honor of Carl Schalk"
By Carl Schalk, Carlos R. Messerli
Published by Kirk House Publishers, 2005
ISBN 1932688110, 9781932688115

Contains a list of Kuhnau's canatas and their scoring.

James Atkins Pritchard wrote (April 3, 2009):
[To Douglas Cowling] Thank you for this, Doug. The Rimbach article is excellent and the volume as whole appears to be full of good stuff. The Braun article on Passion settings seems especially interesting.

Kuhnau: Magnificat in C from St, Thomas'. Leipzig

Douglas Cowling wrote (December 20, 2015):
Lovely Christmas Magnificat with interpolations -- Bach was part of a magnificent tradition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ-wr1d4_F4

I hear a lot of Handel in this.

How he found a musical gem: "Der Gerechte kommt um"

Niels Brandt wrote (May 28, 2020):
I recently had a chat with Gabriel Hollander, a young pianist and conductor living in Belgium, on the subject of YouTube video creation. He then told me, that he had just released the first video in a series of 3, dealing with the motet "Der Gerechte kommt um". He describes the huge impact this motet has made on him, and he will explore why. His style is very humorous and engaging, and I can really recommend that you check out his video: https://youtu.be/3Y_eaFmj0V0

A few days ago, the second video in the series appeared: https://youtu.be/rIHkDEgaqME

This particular motet is an arrangement (most probably by Bach) of an older a cappella motet "Tristis est anima mea", attributed to Johann Kuhnau, the predecessor of Bach as Cantor at St. Thomas in Leipzig. "Der Gerechte kommt um" is also very dear to me and I have known it since the early 80s (it was recorded by Monteverdi Choir in April 1980 and came out on Erato). Later it has been recorded during their Bach pilgrimage in 2000: https://youtu.be/X96zXtX_20Q (includes the score)