Georg Philipp Telemann & Bach
Discussions - Part 2

Continue from Part 1

Telemann's published cantatas 1726

Bradley Lehman wrote (January 12, 2007):
The current issue of American Record Guide has a very favorable review of the new series of all of Telemann's "Harmonischer Gottes-Dienst" published cantatas, 1725-6. Volume 1 is recorded so far, by Bergen Barokk. This album: Amazon.com

There is also this new and competing set of Telemann's HGD cantatas that is supposed to be released next week, and sung by Klaus Mertens et al: Amazon.com (which to me looks like a self-recommending album to snap up: I think Mertens is reliably terrific in his musicianship!)

Apropos of current discussion, I'm curious if Bach ever made use of any of this published series by Telemann... especially for his several Leipzig ensembles that needed easier music than his own. The Telemann cycle of cantatas, here, is a series for one obbligato melody instrument, one singer, and basso continuo.

Telemann

Bradley Lehman wrote (January 25, 2007):
<< Fasch became Big Fred's harpsichordist (position held jointly with CPE) around 1757, when he (Fasch) was 20. But he wasn't still Big Fred's harpsichordist in 1791, as Big Fred had died in 1786. >>
< Sometimes known as Big Dead Fred after 1786. >
I wonder how often any of Mattheson, Telemann, CPE Bach, or Brahms ever uttered the phrase: "Ich bin ein Hamburger."

Two weeks ago I remarked:
< The current issue of American Record Guide has a very favorable review of the new series of all of Telemann's "Harmonischer Gottes-Dienst" published cantatas, 1725-6. Volume 1 is recorded so far, by Bergen Barokk. This album: Amazon.com >

My copy has arrived. All possible thumbs up on this deluxe production, excellent music, and thrilling performance. Six little cantatas averaging 11 minutes each, for soprano and b.c. with one melody instrument (here recorder, or "Flute a bec" as it says on T's title page...with Umlaut in the u and grave accent on the next word, a nice zusammenmacaronimash of German and French). There are some obviously virtuosic challenges in both the vocal part and the flauto, but handled here with great grace and drive. The continuo team improvises imaginatively. The libretto gives German along with French and English, plus the scriptural readings appropriate for each piece's liturgical function.

The booklet notes point out that Telemann had written a bunch of commissioned cantatas (not these) for both the Thomaskirche and Nikolaikirche, way back when he was a student in Leipzig in his 20s. No wonder they wanted him back, in line for the job ahead of Bach....! I'd like to hear those youthful pieces. Anybody know if they're recorded? Or if Bach used them in services, 20+ years later, from the libraries?

Ed Myskowski wrote (January 25, 2007):
Brad Lehman wrote:
< with Umlaut in the u and grave accent on the next word, a nice zusammenmacaronimash of German and French). >
<There you go again!> (late USA Pres. Reagan). I have looked in vain in my American English dictionary for words beginning with zusa. I did not even find zusaphone.

I believe we need a whole new category of expression, to be so labeled when used. The BLAZE: Brad Lehman American Zealot English. Or perhaps there is a more suitable word than zealot. In truth, I grabbed the first Z word that came to mind. Would zebra do better? As in the guy with the striped shirt, the referee? Never mind.

Joost wrote (January 25, 2007):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
< with Umlaut in the u and grave accent on the next word, a nice zusammenmacaronimash of German and French). >
My personal Telemann spelling favourite is "deßys de viole", by which he means the descant viola da gamba. The ß of course is the German double-s, and Germans pronounce the y as a French u.

I like this new recording of the Harmonische Gottesdienst too, though I would have preferred (especially when it is going to be a complete recording set) when Bergen Barokk would have opted for maintaining the original sequence of 72 cantatas, following the Church year. Thus providing a better variation in instrumentation (recorder, flute, violin, oboe) on the discs - Telemann hardly ever prescribed the same obligato instrument in two successive cantatas.

Telemann's alleged naivete

Bradley Lehman wrote (April 21, 2007):
< I have never stated or claimed that I am a non-musician as you always wish to point out. It is only you who has attempted to define a musician as one who has received academic training in music with a degree at a university or acclaimed music school. This, of course, would force me into the same category as Telemann and Bach who were autodidacts in just about every sense of the word, particularly not having enjoyed a university education with degrees in music. Thanks, however, for putting me into such illustrious company! >
WudjutalkingaboutWillis?

Telemann was a university student in Leipzig 1701-5; and during that time he organized several performance ensembles, including directorship of the Leipzig Opera, employing student singers and instrumentalists. When Kuhnau's job came open 1722-3, some of the Leipziggers wanted to bring this fabulous Telemann back.

But they couldn't get him, so Bach got hired instead...for this academic job with academic responsibilities (autodidact or not, himself), which meant a demonstration of ability commensurate with the job.

So, to be in that illustrious company, let's see some.

Thomas Braatz wrote (April 21, 2007):
Bradley Lehman wrote:
>>Telemann was a university student in Leipzig 1701-5; and during that time he organized several performance ensembles, including directorship of the Leipzig Opera, employing student singers and instrumentalists.<<
As usual in a presentation of 'facts' by Brad Lehman, they need to be tempered by a closer inspection of what is really there when all the details are examined carefully.

Overlooked here is the following:

Yes, Telemann enrolled as a student at the University of Leipzig in the fall of 1701, but he had no interest whatsoever in attending courses leading to a Law Degree which his mother, who wanted to make Telemann give up his musical interests, required of him so that he would continue to receive money from her for room and board. German academic freedom, at that time, and up until almost the present time, did not require tests or exams until just before taking a degree. Often a student might appear only once (for a sign-up or sign-in) during the course of a semester and a student might be enrolled in this way for many semesters or years without taking an examination. Telemann took advantage of this system (no interim progress reports were sent to parents) and devoted himself entirely to composing and performing music. Instead of studying for his university courses in Law, Telemann secretly composed music so that his colleagues would not be aware of his clandestine activities which, if discovered, might possibly be reported to his mother. Fortunately, when someone did discover one of these compositions, it was instead shown to other Leipzig musicians who then managed to get it performed in church. Eventually, as a result of this, the Mayor of Leipzig offered him money (it was a pittance according to Telemann, but he accepted nevertheless) to compose a cantata every two weeks for performance at St. Thomas Church, much to Johann Kuhnau's dismay. In 1702, Telemann became the director and primary composer for the Leipzig Opera. Also during the same year, Telemann founded, conducted (and probably composed for) a Collegium musicum consisting of up to 40 musicians. This group performed (sight-read) music regularly at various locales and coffee-houses in Leipzig. On August 8, 1704, before leaving Leipzig that same year, Telemann was appointed organist and music director of the New Church. From 1704 to 1708, according to Telemann, he was already in Sorau (this notwithstanding, a documented payment dated April 22, 1705 was made to him for previous services rendered at that church).

Summary:

Telemann did enroll at the University of Leipzig in the fall of 1701, but there is no evidence that he ever accomplished anything in pursuing the goal of a Law degree for which his mother continued to send him money as long as he was enrolled in Law and stayed away from his musical interests. Within a few months, Telemann was composing, performing and conducting music in various musical organizations: a new cantata every two weeks for performances at St. Thomas Church, founding, directing and composing for a new Collegium musicum ,and director and primary composer for the Leipzig Opera. Later, in 1704, Telemann became organist and musical director at the New Church.

Even if he had wanted seriously to obtain a Law degree, where would Telemann have found sufficient time to listen to all the lectures and study the required books that would ensure that he would receive such a degree? For all practical purposes, Telemann was a university drop-out by the end of the first semester. Pro forma, Telemann could afford to pay the university tuition fees for many semesters with his mother's money without ever accomplishing anything academically, according to the motto: officially enrolled, but essentially not present and not giving any proof of real progress ("mehr Schein als Sein"). Hence, Telemann did not receive a university education (except in name only by continuing to have his name recognized as being enrolled), nor did he receive any degree (not even in music!).

As Telemann himself claimed, he was an autodidact in music with no music degrees to list as his accomplishments nor any famous music teachers as his mentors.

Bradley Lehman wrote (April 21, 2007):
< As Telemann himself claimed, he was an autodidact in music with no music degrees to list as his accomplishments nor any famous music teachers as his mentors. >
And so SHAZAM! you are in illustrious company after all. Excellent, well done.

Telemann and Pachelbel

Bob Brennan wrote (May 6, 2008):
I am new to the group to the cantata site and relatively new fan of Bach (better late than never) and am happy to be aboard. I have a concert program from some years ago at the University of Michigan and have a few questions about it if anyone can help.

The program's listing includes Telemann's cantata Geseget ist die Zuversicht and Pachelbel's cantata Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan. While searching for a recording of the Telemann cantata I noticed on the cantatas site (link below) that the music for it was lost. I was wondering if the performance at this concert was actually Bach's cantata, based on the Telemann cantata that was subsequently lost?

Cantata BWV Anh 1 - Details: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWVAnh1.htm

I have also been unable to find a recording of Pachelbel's cantata and was wondering if it is musically distinct from Bach's (BWV 97-100). Any clarification would be appreciated.

Chorale Melody - Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/CM/Was-Gott-tut.htm

Thanks!

Joost wrote (May 6, 2008):
Bob Brennan wrote:
< [...] Pachelbel's cantata Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan. [...] I have also been unable to find a recording of Pachelbel's cantata and was wondering if it is musically distinct from Bach's (BWV 97-100). Any clarification would be appreciated. >
Pachelbel's Was Gott tut ist wohl getan has been recorded by Jean Tubéry cs.

See http://www.alpha-prod.com/readmorecd.php?id=252

This is based on the same choral melody as Bach's compositions.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (May 6, 2008):
Bob Brennan wrote:
< The program's listing includes Telemann's cantata Geseget ist die Zuversicht and Pachelbel's cantata Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan. While searching for a recording of the Telemann cantata I noticed on the cantatas site (link below) that the music for it was lost. I was wondering if the performance at this concert was actually Bach's cantata, based on the Telemann cantata that was subsequently lost?
Cantata BWV Anh 1 - Details: http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWVAnh1.htm >
I asked Johannes Pausch about this question, he's a Telemann expert and wrote me the following information, I hope it helps explain things ;)

"In Alfred Duerr's bach cantata compendium 1/1971 vol. 2 p. 379 he reports that a cantata "Gesegnet ist die Zuversicht" had been offfered by Breitkopf music shop in 1770 under J.S. Bach's author name, this music had not come to us.In Breitkopf's catalogue of 1770, p. 9 you will find

Bach, Joh. Seb.
Dom. VII. p. Trin. Gesegnet ist die Zuversicht. a 2 Flau- | ti, 2 Viol.
Viola, S. A. T. B. e Fondamento. in Stim[men] (i.e. in parts). 1 thl.
(one thaler)

Dürr things it a matter of confusion with an equally titled cantata by Telemann. See Neue Bach Ausgabe, Kritischer Bericht (critical report) vol. 1/18, p. 118 f, and: Alfred Dürr, Zur Echtheit einger Bach zugeschriebener Kantaten (On some cantatas attributed to Bach), Bach-Jahrbuch 1951-1952, 41 f. So maybe a cantata with this title by Bach never has existed.

We have two cantatas with that text incipit by Telemann, TVWV 1:616 (Frankfurt 1049/318) and 1:617 (Berlin SPK Mus. ms. 21742/10; new edition by Alfred Duerr, Baerenreiter 1954). The cantata text is from Erdmann Neumeister's 3^rd cantata cycle "Geistliches Singen und Spielen", Gotha 1711, repr. in "Fünffache Kirchen-Andachten", Leipzig 1716, p. 365 f.

The Breitkopf cantata could meet TVWV 1:617, only there is no Soprano and Alto in the vocals. Even Menke in his cantata directory says it has S.A.T.B, but it is only T. and B. Maybe this mistake is sort of preceded by Breitkopf.

The Berlin ms. has been bought in 1901 from Artaria publisher's archive of Vienna. It's got the title: J.N.J. (=in nomine Jesu), Dom. VII. p. Trinit:, di Telemann. It's a copyists writing from about 1725.

Hope this helps

Bob Brennan wrote (May 6, 2008):
[To Joost] Many thanks!

Bob Brennan wrote (May 6, 2008):
[To Kim Patrick Clow] Thanks Kim.... sounds like no certain link between them although the Breitkopf cantata could be with the missing parts.... the concert program I have must have included TVWV 1:616 or 1:617 if I am interpreting it correctly....

OT: Telemann 1736 Suites/Overtures (re)discovered

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (December 11, 2008):
While most know Telemann published his Tafelmusic in 1734, there was a 2nd collection published in 1736 of six orchestral suites, which were never issued in modern editions (although some of the movements were printed in badly edited modern scores). The only surviving copy of Telemann's prinwas in Berlin until 1945, when it was assumed that it was destroyed. While 3 of the 1738 suites survived in handwritten copies in Darmstadt, it wasn't possible to check them against Telemann's original prints for errors, so it was unclear if his intentions were honored in these manuscript cpoies. It was assumed these ouvertures were completely lost.

Recently, musicologist Dr. Peter Huth was able to discover a copy of the printed edition after seeing it listed in a footnote regarding a Moscow archive. Lo and behold, the entire print was intact in good condition! These suites have recently been recorded by Pavel Serbin and his early music ensemble "Pratum Integrum," and they will be released on the Caro Mitis label, which has now started a complete recording project of Telemann's suites.

A video clip of the recording sessions is on Youtube: Youtube: Suite TWV 55: Es1

By the way, Caro Mitis has released many Bach SACDS over the last year, and they are getting wonderful reviews!

Many musciologists believe that there are many unknown treasures awaiting discovery in Eastern Europe and Russia, but the recent change in political climate has made things particularly bad: e.g. there was a large music collection in the University of Königsburg up until 1945, when the city was bombed into rubble. What was left of the library collection was apparently taken to Riga, and then manuscripts were hauled off to the Soviet Union for restoration work. Politics has prevented any meaningful discussion about returning the manuscripts to Riga unfortunately, but you have to wonder what is exactly in these hidden archives.

Seasons Greetings!

OT: Steven Zohn's Telemann Book "Music for a Mixed Taste"

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (January 1, 2009):
Happy New Year Everyone:

I was given a fantastic Christmas present-- Steven Zohn's book "Music for a Mixed Taste: Style, Genre, and Meaning in Telemann's Instrumental Works." It's been at least 40 years since a book in English on Telemann has appeared, and this certainly makes up for the dry spell, it's simply fantastic. There is a lot of research provided
on background material that many fans of Bach's music would find meaningful and important (e.g. court ensembles in Germany, a history of musical forms as they matured during the baroque with a big focus on the orchestral suite).

There is a fascinating chapter on Bach and Telemann entitled "Bach's Debt Repaid with Interest," studying Bach's use of Telemann's music (including an extensive muiscal analysis of Bach's use in BWV 169 of an entire Telemann oboe/flute concerto movement.

While the focus of the book is instrumental music, Dr. Zohn does cover some discussion about Telemann's vocal music in relation to his career over 65 years as a composer and especially in connection to his relationship to Bach. There are many music reproductions of pieces that are not available in modern editions along with several reproductions of manuscripts and prints from the 18^th century, as well as some artwork.

Amazon has this title available at a bit cheaper price than Oxford University Press. I'm not sure if this is a title a local library would carry, but maybe they could special order a copy if you request it ;)

More details on the book are available here: Oxford University Press

May all of you have a Happy New Year!!!

Ed Myskowski wrote (January 1, 2009):
Bach and Telemann [was Zohns text]

Kim wrote (on topic, as I see it):
>There is a fascinating chapter on Bach and Telemann entitled "Bach's Debt Repaid with Interest," studying Bach's use of Telemann's music (including an extensive musical analysis of Bach's use in BWV 169 of an entire Telemann oboe/flute concerto movement.<
Thanks for pointing out the Telemann/Bach connection re BWV 169. I look forward to listening to it, and reading the analysis.

The chapter heading implies that there are borrowings in the other direction as well (Telemann collecting the debt from Bach). Is that correct?

I appreciate your emphasis of the point that Bach did not live or compose in musical (or cultural) isolation, also the suggestions for related music.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (January 1, 2009):
Ed Myskowski wrote:
> The chapter heading implies that there are borrowings in the other direction as well (Telemann collecting the debt from Bach). Is that correct? <
No, Telemann didn't borrow any music from Bach, what I believe Zohn meant by this chapter title is Bach used Telemann's music, and made it his own.

> I appreciate your emphasis of the point that Bach did not live or compose in musical (or cultural) isolation, also the suggestions for related music. <
I'm grateful for that! I try hard in my wee efforts to halt this artifical competition between Bach and Telemann, :) Dr. Zohn talks at great length about this competition in musiclogical history and it's a fascinating read as well.

Happy New Year Ed! :-)

Julian Mincham wrote (January 1, 2009):
OT: telemann

Music for a Mixed Taste: Style, Genre, and Meaning in Telemann's Instrumental Works (Hardcover)
by Steven, Zohn (Author)

can anyone offer a good review of this book? I note that Amazon are offering it for $44, second hand copies a bit cheaper.

Julian Mincham wrote (January 1, 2009):
sorry--I just sent my previous email asking about this book without reading my incoming post first.

Terejia wrote (January 1, 2009):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29680
< Happy New Year Everyone:
I was given a fantastic Christmas present-- Steven Zohn's book "Music for a Mixed Taste:<
Thank you for the information. Telemann is a composer I love listening to when I feel tired and need some refreshing air. In Japan, somehow, Vivaldi-Bach connection is attracting more attention than Telemann-Bach relation. Your information sounds interesting and Telemann-Bach comparison sounds worthwhile to explore deeper into when good opportunity comes.

In the meantime, my personal senses, devoid of any academic knowledge, says that Telemann is more suitable when I feel like taking some rest and comfort while Bach demands more upward spiritual energy and mental toughness.

< May all of you have a Happy New Year!!! >
You, too.

Happy New Year- Kinga Shinnenn

PS even more OT : we Japanese don't have Christmas Oratorio part 4/ Mottet Singet dem Herrn ein Neues Lied/ or Wiener Phyilharmonic Orchestra's New Year Concert type of sentiment in our DNA. Our family do enjoy these sort of music in New Year but it still feels somewhat artificial. What we have in our DNA as a New Year is entirely different. In music, it would be played with Japanese traditional string and/or wind instrument and of course melody or harmony are entirely different. Dance music for new year occasion is by no means Minuetto, Polonaise or the kinds.

To make long story short, New Year is a season for me to realize how my DNA is different from that of Westerners, while Christmas was the season I could share the sentiment with Westerners.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (January 1, 2009):
Terejia wrote:
< In Japan, somehow, Vivaldi-Bach connection is attracting more attention than Telemann-Bach relation. >
I suppose because of Vivaldi's concerto's and Bach's study of them. Telemann stated his own concertos "smelled of the French," meaning he didn't use Italian models as much as he did the French, but tellingly, Telemann stated he didn't care for writing concertos- but did it out of necessity. That's an odd statement: considering how many survive and beautiful they are (especially the oboe and oboe d'amore concertos).

< In the meantime, my personal senses, devoid of any academic knowledge, says that Telemann is more suitable when I feel like taking some rest and comfort while Bach demands more upward spiritual energy and mental toughness. >
I don't know what Telemann pieces you have heard, and I don't wish to duplicate Dr. Zohn's efforts by being an apologist for Telemann,but I think some points are worth mentioning, including Bach performed several Telemann cantatas and some of those slipped in as Bach compositions in the first Bach edition.

One Telemann cantata that is definitely worth seeking out is "Machet die Tore weit," TWV 1:1075 (for the first Sunday in Advent, Eisenach 1719). Bach personally copied this cantata and performed it at Leipzig during Advent 1734. The piece survives in multiple manuscript sources in Germany, indicating it's popularity, and rightfully so.

Telemann wrote in an autobiography that he could write music that "looked good on paper but sounded awful" as much as anyone, and he believed melody was of the utmost importance, and humor was essential to music. Telemann then recounts that as a 12 year old boy taking organ lessons, he had to switch teachers because the organist had no sense of humor and was rather dry.

Thankfully now there are many recordings now of Telemann's orchestral suites, with two complete projects to record all of them: one on the Brilliant Classics label and another on the Caro Mitis label with Pratum Integrum with Pavel Serbin conducting. While much of this music is delightful table dinner music, there are some wonderful mini-masterpieces in them, especially the ones in the tragic minor keys.

I'm now editing one of the more famous Telemann suites, the TWV 55:C6 (for 3 oboes, bassoon, strings and basso continuo), and it's just beautiful-- everything is in the sunny key of C major, then you hit this mournful, angsty movement entitled "Someille" ("Sleep") in c minor. Zohn picks this movement for lengthy analysis and rightfully calls it a minature masterpiece. I can't imagine the world without this piece of music--- and neatly tucked away in what had to be a purely "entertainment" piece! I'll ask Ayreh if he would post this piece along with a PDF of the the score to this movement.

Another fine tragic key ouverture is the TWV 55:g4 (for 3 oboes, bassoons, strings and basso continuo) is available on a DG-Archiv CD with Trevor Pinnock and the English Consort. Another one is TWV 55:g3 "La Changeante," which has a movement that sounds very similiar to Bach's "Air on the G String." Most worthy of your efforts to locate and listen!

There are just as many hidden treasures in Telemann's cantatas, and many years of primary research is finally yielding results (i.e. location of sources, identification of cantata cycles, dating of the sources and source criticism of their transmission through Europe, etc). Christiane Jungen's book on the Telemann Frankfurt cantatas was just published by Barenreiter, and is excellent (if you read German).

I just wished that more of this reseach resulted in more performing editions and recordings of the music. While I'm very thankful for the recordings that are available-- when you consider that there are about 2000 surviving cantatas, and at the most there are only at the most 25 on CD (I'm not including Telemann's "Harmony in God's
Service" in that count BTW).

Aryeh just posted the news about a new recording of Telemann's Brockes Passion, TWV 5:1 (1719 version) with Rene Jacobs on the Harmonia Mundi label. That would a worthy CD purchase I believe ;)

I also hope you are feeling much better from your cold too ;) I hate being sick anytime, but it seems more worse when your are sick during a holiday!

Happy New Year,

Joost wrote (January 1, 2009):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
[...]
< There are just as many hidden treasures in Telemann's cantatas, and many years of primary research is finally yielding results (i.e. location of sources, identification of cantata cycles, dating of the sources and source criticism of their transmission through Europe, etc). Christiane Jungen's book on the Telemann Frankfurt cantatas was just published by Barenreiter, and is excellent (if you read German). >
Thanks Kim for bringing this book to my attention.

By the way, the correct name of the author is Christiane Jungius.
Telemanns Frankfurter Kantatenzyklen
ISBN 978-3-7618-1998-2

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (January 1, 2009):
Joost wrote:
< Thanks Kim for bringing this book to my attention.
By the way, the correct name of the author is Christiane Jungius.
Telemanns Frankfurter Kantatenzyklen
ISBN 978-3-7618-1998-2 >
I'm sorry about that typographical mistake :( I ordered the book directly from Barenreiter's website and it was here within a week (was at my door on Christmas Eve!)

Happy New Year to you!

Terejia wrote (January 3, 2009):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/BachCantatas/message/29690
> I don't know what Telemann pieces you have heard, <
Of course nowhere near the amount of listening you have done-I have Harnoncourt's Tafel Musik set, a casset tape a friend of mine gave me many years ago which has "12 Fantagies" by Flautotraverso performed by B Kuijken (sound quality not bad at all), several Paris Quartet I recorded from FM radio years ago. 12 Fantagies are my first choice when I feel exhausted and want to listen to something beautiful absent-mindedly.

One of my organ teachers, who is a music university professor, has a career of having worked with Osaka Telemann Ensemble and I believe he served as an organist in performing Telemann cantatas.

I am now taking advantage of being a member of Naxos Music Library and listening to Brockes Passion. Indeed I feel I am getting in touch with another face of Telemann I haven't seen so far. Thank you for yor information.

> Telemann wrote in an autobiography that he could write music that "looked good on paper but sounded awful" as much as anyone, and he believed melody was of the utmost importance, and humor was essential to music. <
Now at this moment of listening, my listening faculty definitely concurs with that statement! I personally find Telemann to be melodically beautiful. Maybe less frequently interferred with discordants than in Bach's music, at least in my current personal perception...

(..)
> I just wished that more of this reseach resulted in more performing editions and recordings of the music.<
May your New Year's wish come true!

> I also hope you are feeling much better from your cold too ;) I hate being sick anytime, but it seems more worse when your are sick during a holiday! <
Thank you, again, for your coardial message. May this new year bring you and all the others on the list and also to those who we have in mind.

John Pike wrote (January 4, 2009):
Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
< Bach performed several Telemann cantatas and some of those slipped in as Bach compositions in the first Bach edition. >
One Telemann cantata that is definitely worth seeking out is "Machet die Tore weit," TWV 1:074 (for the first Sunday in Advent, Eisenach 1719). Bach personally copied this cantata and performed it at Leipzig during Advent 1734. The piece survives in multiple manuscript sources in Germany, indicating it's popularity, and rightfully so.

Another fine cantata by Telemann is the "Donner-Ode", and I have a nice recording of it on Chandos, with Richard Hickox (RIP) and Collegium Musicum 90.

Ed Myskowski wrote (January 5, 2009):
Kim wrote:
>Brockes Passion, TWV 5:1
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/6058521?
There will be a new recording of this with Rene Jacob on the Harmonia Mundi label in Feburary 2009:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Other/Telemann-Brockes-Passion.htm
(7 Sopranos, my goodness!)<

EM
Keep us posted. There are a lot of cut-out Harmonia-Mundi CDs (including a bit of Deller, which is how I noticed) available. So much, I was wondering if the label is staying in business. Way, way OT, but the discussion of the relation between Deller and Harmonia-Mundi, included with the memorial <Portrait of a Legend> issue, is legendary (if not apocryphal).

KPC
>I would also recommend the Telemann Kaptains-Music too, but that music has a completely different focus and purpose, but it's still quite lovely stuff and recommended.<

EM
For those of us who have access to <CDs by the bushel> via Berksire Records, www2.bro.com, there are a number (71) of Telemann items available, including a couple (non-vocal) from CPO, and a version of the <Kaptains-Music>, Hannsler label I believe. Not many <dirt cheap> as sometimes on BRO, but all woth a look, IMO.

Kim, especially BRO, and perhaps even president-elect Obama (noting my concern for <The Economy>) will be happy to know that I have ordered my customary <bushel>, from the available Telemann. In the unforgettable words of Allen Ginsberg: <Amerika! I am putting my queer shoulder to the wheel.> Hope that is close, cited from memory of the sixties.

<Memory of the sixties> is still laughed at as an oxymoron in some circles, but that is in itself a paradox: if you can remenber, you were not there; therefore, if you cannot remember, you were. Or is that a conundrum? Darn those Greeks, always thinking. I would call them gnostics, but that is for another time.

I am careful to point out, when citing information retrieved from a religious site (site? cite? English is not easy), that the site does not necessarily represent my spiritual position or affiliation. That may have been misinterpreted by some (one, for sure) to mean that I am an atheist. My personal spiritual beliefs are not only OT, but inappropriate for discussion on BCML, on or off list. Indeed, the only reason I am careful when citing info from a specifically sectarian Christian site is an attempt to avoid that misunderstanding. The best laid plans ....

Pantheistically yours, and

Aloha (always, to everyone, despite my wicked sense of humor), Ed Myskowski

Bach did Telemann Advent Cantata

William L. Hoffman wrote (January 28, 2009):
ADVENT 1: [TVWV1:1074] Machet die Tore weit [TELEMANN, chorus].
11/28/34 JSB perf.; 1st. perf., ?11/29/1722.
Source: (1) score copy (JSB, SPK P. 47; ?CPEB, Pölchau 1789); (2) parts copy (lost).
Literature: Mencke TVWV, Hänssler Telemann Church Music Catalog 1981, Glöckner BJ1981
Text: Helbig (?1720); #1, Ps. 24:7; #5, cle. Schrieber"Warum willst du
Forces: SATB, 4 vv, 2 ob, str, bc.
Movements: chorus, 2 arias (S, B), recit. (T).
1. Chs. (tutti): Open the doors wide.
2. Aria (S,tutti): Jesu, come into my soul.
3. Rec. (T): I will prepare to sweeten the way.
4. Aria (B): I will give, not will I struggle.
5. Cle. (tutti): Why willt thou

Librettist: Helbig (?1720), Hbg. Arch. H.9 (v.)
Sources: F. 1249/518, Bln.SPK. Bach Auto. P.47 (11/28/1734),
Lpzg.III.2.179/4 (only opening chorus) Bln.SPK 21740/20
Recordings: GPT Advent & Christmas Cantatas, Carus FSM 53136 (1979)

Edition: Hänssler 39.105; Eds. Traugott Fedkte, Klaus Hofmann (1981):

Catalog: The Advent cantata "Machet die Tore weit" is today one of the most performed Telemann church works. Among the manuscripts that preserve the cantata for us is found an important witness of the esteem J.S. Bach revealed toward his renowned contemporary Hamburg colleague. One manuscript from the Thomas cantor's hand is an original score copy {from parts set}, determined for a Leipzig performance of the Cantata on Advent 1, 1734 (thus during the approximate time of the first performance of the Christmas Oratorio. From later time exists an ornamented version for the work's two arias, which probably proceeded from C.P.E. Bach {Telemann's successor in Hamburg}. It is a witness of the decorative practice of special interest in the 18th century. Performance time, about 25 minutes.

Surprisingly, this Telemann cantata is the only work of his in Bach's hand and its performance is dated to 1734. This was during the nebulous Leipzig dating period of 1729-35 when Bach ceased to present cantatas on a regular basis. It falls between Alfred Dürr's critical and exemplary dating of the vocal music to 1729 and Yoshitake Kobyashi's dating of 1735-50.

During the interim period, Bach is thought to have considered and rejected the Picander fourth cycle and probably did not compile a fifth cycle. Instead, he wrote a dozen chorale cantatas, some to fill the Trinity to Epiphany gap in his second cycle and the others constituting pure-chorale-texts apparently for non-specific church-year use such as weddings and services anytime. Another dozen late church cantatas were composed for special occasions or to fill gaps in his incomplete third cantata cycle. Instead, Bach focused his vocal efforts on major Passion oratorios and parodies, as well as the Kyrie-Gloria of his B-Minor Mass (BWV 232) and secular dramma per musica primarily for the Saxon Court.

Two Bach scholars, Andreas Glöckner and Kirsten Beißwenger (BJ 1981, 1991) have found evidence that Bach, during the first half of the 1730s, increasingly turned his attention to the music of other composers. These involved both contemporary works for church use as well as Latin studies of so-called stile antico, moderno, and misto (mixed) styles, especially for his parodied Mass settings.

Glockner in "New Knowledge of Bach's Performance Calendar, 1729-35" examined parts sets copied by Bach scholars J.L. Dietel, J.A. Kuhnau, and Christoph Nickelmann. Telemann was found most often, with cantatas and a Passion for Good Friday, Easter, and a German Magnificat. These works may have been presented at the progressive New Church of G.B. Schott and C.G. Gerlach, Bach's assistant at the Collegium musicum.

OT: Telemann

Peter Moncure wrote (October 1, 2009):
Kim Patrick Clow opined:
> "Who wrote the best orchestral suites?" Hands down, Telemann I'm afraid.<
Then Douglas Cowling commented:
> I try and try to make Telemann stick, but I can't whistle a single tune. Why is there not a single Telemann work which has caught the popular imagination?<
I'm far too unfamiliar with most of Telemann's opus even to reply to Kim's assertion or Doug's question. I guess that's an opportunity!

I did notice that on the mission statement of the "new" WQXR there this recently appeared:
“there may indeed be times when the more radical and unfamiliar pieces work, but we will not favor them over the work that speaks directly to the needs of uplift, beauty and contemplation. ... Greatness matters. Bach trumps Telemann”
New York's non-commercial WNYC has purchased the WQXR "franchise" in a complicated license and money swap, which will enable it to make its primary station news and move mostly music to the revamped and less powerful WQXR. I'd say the trump was a poor choice of words in a sea of media sound bites. Implying that Telemann is radical is absurd, and their UBC trio may not play well to morning drive on the Long Island Expressway.

I'd like to append an apologetic request for help in identifying a cantata aria. It's in 3, with strings moving half-quarter, half-quarter, with an obbligato flute in sixteenths on the first beat, tying the long note into the first sixteenth of the following bar, and I cannot push it out of my mind, even with my favorite fugal "chasers", nor can I recall anything more about it that might enable me to find its source so I can play it half a dozen times to scratch the mental itch.

If anyone recognizes this from my meager description I'd be grateful for an email on- or offlist.

Thanks to all, especially Aryeh, from a too-seldom poster grateful for the ongoing discussion and fascinating enlighten.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (October 1, 2009):
Peter Moncure wrote:
< I'm far too unfamiliar with most of Telemann's opus even to reply to Kim's assertion or Doug's question. I guess that's an opportunity!
I did notice that on the mission statement of the "new" WQXR there thisrecently appeared:
“there may indeed be times when the more radical and unfamiliar pieces work, but we will not favor them over the work that speaks directly to the needs of uplift, beauty and contemplation. ... Greatness matters.Bach trumps Telemann”
New York's non-commercial WNYC has purchased the WQXR "franchise" in a complicated license and money swap, which will enable it to make its primary station news and move mostly music to the revamped and less powerful WQXR. I'd say the trump was a poor choice of words in a sea of media sound bites. Implying that Telemann is radical is absurd, and their UBC trio may not play well to morning drive on the Long Island Expressway. >
I'll stand by my original comment: when looked at as a complete body of works, there wasn't a better composer of orchestral suites in Germany than Telemann.

That quote about Telemann and greatness comes from a James R. Oestrich review of Apollo's Fire concert at Columbia University in October, 2006.. The concert attempted to recreate a instrumental contest between Telemann and Bach.Mr. Oestreich's obviously thought Bach the winner. I think perhaps the "contest" aspect was really meant more tongue in cheek, a point apparently completely lost in the review.

Mr. Oestrich's recent New York Times snide article about Mozart and the Mostly Mozart Festival makes him a critic I could care less what he thinks, especially about Telemann and Mozart.

Harry W. Crosby wrote (October 2, 2009):
Kim Patrick Clow opined:
"Who wrote the best orchestral suites?" Hands down, Telemann I'm afraid.
Then Douglas Cowling commented:
< I try and try to make Telemann stick, but I can't whistle a single tune. Why is there not a single Telemann work which has caught the popular imagination? >
While I am indebted to Kim Patrick Clow for numerous instructive and useful postings, in this instance I have to come down strongly on the side of Doug Cowling. Honestly, for years I have made repeated attempts to find recordings of the music that inspires high opinions of Telemann as a composer. I have found much of his music pleasant, modestly attractive on first hearing, and usually less and less so later on, in marked contrast to Bach, creator of literally hundreds of works, hundreds which I know, love, and always have available. Right now, I have an attractive disk of Telemann's oboe/oboe d'amore concertos, and that is it.

I must hear Telemann's orchestral suites with an open mind, but also with the caveat that defeating Bach on that score would, in my book, not be a big deal since I frankly do not find his four orchestral suites continuing to engage me, at least beyond two or three more inspired movements.

Kim Patrick Clow wrote (October 2, 2009):
Harry W. Crosby wrote:
< While I am indebted to Kim Patrick Clow for numerous instructive and useful postings, in this instance I have to come down strongly on the side of Doug Cowling. Honestly, for years I have made repeated attempts to find recordings of the music that inspires high opinions of Telemann as a composer. I have found much of his music pleasant, modestly attractive on first hearing, and usually less and less so later on, in marked contrast to Bach, creator of literally hundreds of works, hundreds which I know, love, and always have available. Right now, I have an attractive disk of Telemann's oboe/oboe d'amore concertos, and that is it. >
Bach thought so highly of one of those oboe concertos, he used Telemann's theme in one of his own works.

< I must hear Telemann's orchestral suites with an open mind, but also with the caveat that defeating Bach on that score would, in my book, not be a big deal since I frankly do not find his four orchestral suites continuing to engage me, at least beyond two or three more inspired movements. >
I appreciate your honesty about Telemann's music, obviously in these types of discussions YMMV. But if someone can walk away from the Bach suites, and say only one or two movements are inspired, I fear anything I may type will be pretty futile. While my original wording may have been clunky ( there were reasons why I said "as a body of work, taken as a WHOLE), it was given in the thread where someone just blurted out a litany of "If Bach wrote a piece in a particular genre, it was the best example of that." I still think music isn't a case
about "defeating" anyone. I just find the Spitta-esque "Telemann versus Bach" musicology awfully old fashioned. Bach and Telemann were personal friends and Bach performed several cantatas, the quality was so good that they fooled the BGA editors. But if you don't like Telemann that's OK, but Bach did. And apparently C.P.E. Bach as well. "There are many mansions in my Father's house." I think that applies just as much to music ;)

Of course Handel's borrowings from Telemann go into the dozens. Handel and Telemann were the best of friends too, with apparently some manuscript exchanges going on between them: e.g. Telemann's "arrangement" of Riccardo was just published and performed at the Handel festival this year in Germany to great acclaim.

Mike Mannix wrote (October 3, 2009):
Air 'L'Italiene' from A minor suite for flute is GPT's most whistlable tune. Rest of the suite stands up well to Bach's B min suite.

Arrival of Queen of Sheba..nicked from Telemann,and the main theme of Handel's organ conc number 10 (second mvt)....there are others.

Mike Mannix wrote (October 3, 2009):
I always regard the Tafelmusic of 1733, as the definitive collection of the high baroque. It was widely circulated, admired and known by both Bach and Handel.

To me it sums up that era and is far more representative of peformance during that time than any of Bach's orchestral works.


It ranks alongside Corelli's Opus 6 as a definitve model for music in JSB's lifetime.

Ed Myskowski wrote (October 3, 2009):
< Arrival of Queen of Sheba..nicked from Telemann >
Nicked from where, exactly? This is one of the most hummable (dang whistlers) themes to Bostonians (MA, USA), the opening music for Robert J. Lurtsema, seven days a week, for close to thirty years. The very same guy who began the ongoing Sunday AM Bach cantata broadcasts on WGBH-FM, ca. 1973.

The theme music was folllowed (or preceded, who can remember?) by birdcalls. Definitely whistleable only, not very hummable. Would you like to hear a few bars? I thought not.

Mike Mannix wrote (October 4, 2009):
Triple violin concerto from Part II of Tafelmusic of 1733 becomes Arrival of the Queen of Sheba. Handel was one of the subscribers - his name is on the preface with other subscribers.

The collection also includes several melodies later used by Handel in Messiah. 'Why Do the Nations'; the concerto from Part III (for two horns) becomes one of the later Handel organ concerti, but the outstanding melody from the second suite forms the foundation of Handel's Organ Conc Nr 10.

Would anyone care to compile a fuller list of Tafelmusic themes which appear in Handel's later works?

Apologies for going off-message from the JSB Cantata theme.

Russell Telfer wrote (November 7, 2009):
(My reply below)

Peter Moncure wrote:
< I'd like to append an apologetic request for help in identifying a cantata aria. It's in 3, with strings moving half-quarter, half-quarter, with an obbligato flute in sixteenths on the first beat, tying the long note into the first sixteenth of the following bar, and I cannot push it out of my mind, even with my favorite fugal "chasers", nor can I recall anything more about ithat might enable me to find its source so I can play it half a dozen times to scratch the mental itch.
If anyone recognizes this from my meager description I'd be grateful for an email on- or offlist. >
As far as I can tell, you never got a reply to your question.(As above) It's unsatisfactory when everyone appears to ignore your question but it can easily happen especially if as here your question appears as an afterthought.

I reckon the top suspect is BWV 151 first movement, Süsser Trost, a soprano aria, which fits the bill. It is an astonishingly beautiful piece - the sort of music you would be inclined to hum. So give that a try.

Continue on Part 3

Georg Philipp Telemann: Short Biography | G.P. Telemann - Use of Chorale Melodies in his works | G.P. Telemann - His Autobiography (Hamburg, 1740)
Discussions: Georg Philipp Telemann & Bach: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3
Works: Cantata BWV 141 | Cantata BWV 160 | Cantata BWV 218 | Cantata BWV 219 | Passions-Pasticcio BWV 1088 | Motet Jauchzet dem Herrn, alle Welt, BWV Anh 160 | Cantata Hier ist mein Herz, geliebter Jesu, TWV 1:795 | Cantata Ich freue mich im Herren, TWV 1:826 | Cantata Machet die Tore weit (I), TWV 1:074 | Cantata Der Herr ist König, TWV 8:6 | Brockes Passion, TWV 5:1 | Passions-Oratorium Seliges Erwägen, TWV 5:2
Original German Texts of Telemann's Vocal Works: Sorted by TVWV Number | Sorted by Title | Sorted by Date | Sorted by Event | Music