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Suites for Solo Cello BWV 1007-1012
General Discussions - Part 1 |
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Bach's Six Unaccompanied Cello Suites on Lute/Guitar |
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Britta Kotecha wrote (December 12, 2001):
Who can help? I love Bach's cello suites and I would like to find out how they sound on lute and/or guitar. Please send me info about any recordings you know of six unaccompanied cello suites on guitar and/or lute!!!
Thanks already! |
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Juan Ramon Molina Menor wrote (December 14, 2001):
[To Britta Kotecha] Hello! Almost everything sounds marvelous on a guitar, and these Suites aren't an exception... ;D (But the discussion about transcriptions, arrangements and performance practice is a huge can of controversial worms that I'd not open here).
I haven't listened to complete (all 6) transcriptions of these Suites, but I could recommend you:
Hopkinson Smith
SUITES POUR LUTH BAROQUE BWV 1010 ET 1012
luth a treize choeurs Joel van Lennep
Astree Auvidis E 8744
Andres Segovia
Bach: The Segovia Collection vol. 1 - MCA, 1987
(that's not HIP but it works!)
You didn't asked for but: for the Violin Suites, a favourite of mine (not for everyone's taste):
Paul Galbraith
Bach: The (Unaccompanied Violin) Sonatas & Partitas
Arr. For Unaccompanied 8-String Guitar
Delos DE 3232
And for the Lute Suites:
Stephan Schmidt
Bach: Lute Works
10-String guitar
Naive V 4861
Good listening, |
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Ophelie Gaillard's Cello Suites |
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Pierce Drew wrote (August 13, 2002):
Is anyone familiar with Ophelie Gaillard's recent recording of the cello suites (on the Ambroisie label)? I just read the review of volume 2 in Goldberg (#19) today -- very positive (as in 5 stars).
Thanks, |
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Francine Renee Hall wrote (August 13, 2002):
[To Pierce Drew] I looked quite a time for info on Ophelie Gaillard and didn't find much. I hope you can find useful info soon. While looking I was intrigued by Gaillard performing in a CD called 'J.S. Bach: Aria'. Has anyone heard this or can give a recommendation? The arias from cantatas are interspersed with trio sonatas for organ as well as the Italian Concerto. warmest wishes, Francine (amazon info below) |
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Thomas Braatz wrote (August 13, 2002):
Francine asks:
>> While looking I was intrigued by Gaillard performing in a CD called 'J.S. Bach: Aria'. Has anyone heard this or can give a recommendation? The arias from cantatas are interspersed with trio sonatas for organ as well as the Italian Concerto.<<
I have not heard this recording, but IMO, regarding the aria selections, only the last item (BWV 6 - Aria, "Ach bleib bei uns Herr Jesu Christ") seems to be of the type (a simple chorale melody as the main subject) that Bach might have set for organ (Schübler Chorales) without voice because every listener would have been acquainted with the melody and it could be used as a chorale prelude on the organ before the hymn would be sung by the congregation. The other three arias from BWV 110, 12, and 187 are poor selections because the association with the text is lost entirely. A listener would not know the reason why, for instance in one of the arias, Bach suddenly changes the tempo of the middle section.
Of course, for those who listen to the cantatas simply as musical entertainment, any mvt. of any cantata could be arranged for and played by any conceivable combination of instruments. For such listeners the experience might be like listening to an orchestral version sans voices of a Wagner opera (sometimes I even feel a tendency to want to hear it this way myself when the vocalists and chorus are really bad.) |
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Bylsma partita and sonatas on violincello piccolo |
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Kirk McElhearn wrote (October 12, 2002):
Anyone familiar with this recording, which is being re-released on DHM in the budget Baroque Esprit collection? It dates back to 1978 - I had never heard of it before... |
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Craig Schweickert wrote (October 12, 2002):
[To Kirk McElhearn] It's fantastic, one of his best disks. The partita is a tour de force and the fillers are equally interesting. Virtuosic, penentrating, expressive, sytlish. He not only makes the music sing, he makes it speak. At budget price, not to be missed. |
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Kirk McElhearn wrote (October 12, 2002):
[To Craig Schweickert] Hmmm... My first impression is not quite the same. I am surprised at the poor intonation in the partita, at the high notes, though the flute sonata is brilliant. Only listened to it once, though, so my opinion may change...
And I incorrectly wrote 1978 - it was originally released in 1989.
I am surprised to have never heard of it before; I am a big fan of his cello suites. |
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Craig Schweickert wrote (October 12, 2002):
Kirk McElhearn wrote:
< Hmmm... My first impression is not quite the same. I am surprised at the > poor intonation in the partita, at the high notes, though the flute sonata > is brilliant. Only listened to it once, though, so my opinion may change... >
Hey, you weren't trolling, were you? :-o
Your original post promoted me--after sending off my reply--to dust off the disk and put it on the player, the first time in quite a while. Can't say I find the intonation problematic, nor do I recall an issue being made of it in the reviews of the original release. Agreed that it's not squeaky clean, but then it rarely is with Bylsma. I certainly wouldn't call it poor, though maybe all the Verlet I've been listening lately has increased my tolerance for tang. Care to point out (tracks and times) a couple of spots you find particularly bothersome? The last note of 1006's Preludio doesn't count, BTW; that has to be intentional. The flute sonata I find more profound, deeply affecting, than brilliant, the adjective I'd apply to the aforementioned Preludio. The things I most admire about the performances are the sense of rhetoric and the feeling of dance, both of which are just about unmatched in any other recordings of these works I know.
BTW, any idea why 1013 is commonly referred to as a sonata but listed in the New Grove as a partita? And why can't I find mention of it in the genre index of Wolff's JSB : The Learned Musician? The booklet of the original release contains a fairly interesting note by Bylsma on the history of the violincello piccolo and the instrument and bow used for the recording but not a single word about the music.
< And I incorrectly wrote 1978 - it was originally released in 1989. >
The latter is the date on my full-priced DHM disk.
< I am surprised to have never heard of it before; I am a big fan of his cello suites. >
The original release got very positive reviews in the British and French press and, according to local disk stockists, was a minor best-seller. |
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Kirk McElhearn wrote (October 12, 2002):
Kirk McElhearn wrote:
<< Hmmm... My first impression is not quite the same. I am surprised at the poor intonation in the partita, at the high notes, though the flute sonata >> is brilliant. Only listened to it once, though, so my opinion may change... >>
Craig Schweickert wrote:
< Hey, you weren't trolling, were you? :-o >
No, I was just curious as to the "received wisdom" on this disc, since I was writing a review of it.
< Your original post promoted me--after sending off my reply--to dust off the disk and put it on the player, the first time in quite a while. Can't say I find the intonation problematic, nor do I recall an issue being made of it in the reviews of the original release. Agreed that it's not squeaky clean, but then it rarely is with Bylsma. I certainly wouldn't call it poor, though maybe all the Verlet I've been listening lately has increased my tolerance for tang. Care to point out (tracks and times) a couple of spots you find particularly bothersome? The last note of 1006's Preludio doesn't count, BTW; that has to be intentional. The flute sonata I find more profound, deeply affecting, than brilliant, the adjective I'd apply to the aforementioned Preludio. The things I most admire about the performances are the sense of rhetoric and the feeling of dance, both of which are just about unmatched in any other recordings of these works I know. >
I find the high notes in the opening partita to be very annoying - and I, too, am used to Verlet. It is not a question of temperament, but one of int. The first couple of movements are hard to swallow; the same goes in the final sonata as well.
However, the sarabande in the BWV 1013 is perhaps the most moving piece of music I have ever heard on a solo string instrument. The entire BWV 1013 makes this disc worthwhile, imho. I never thought I would hear that piece played with such beauty and emotion. It makes the flute superfluous.
It sounds as though the flute sonata was recorded at a different time - at least the recording is less harsh and maybe a bit more distant. Do you have any recording info on your CD? The new release says nothing. |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (October 13, 2002):
<< And I incorrectly wrote 1978 - it was originally released in 1989. >>
< The latter is the date on my full-priced DHM disk. >
Mine too. It says it was recorded June 23-25 of 1988, in Haarlem.
I like it well enough to listen to it every year or so, as a novelty of hearing those works an octave lower than usual; I also like his renditions of the solo cello works and the vdg sonatas (with van Asperen), but this one is for me the best of those four discs. |
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Thomas Braatz wrote (October 13, 2002):
Craig Schweikert stated and asked:
>> BTW, any idea why 1013 is commonly referred to as a sonata but listed in the New Grove as a partita? And why can't I find mention of it in the genre index of Wolff's JSB : The Learned Musician? The booklet of the original release contains a fairly interesting note by Bylsma on the history of the violincello piccolo and the instrument and bow used for the recording but not a single word about the music.<<
The NBA VI/3 KB lists BWV 1013 as "Partita A-moll für Flauto Traverso Solo" which does not necessarily lend any special authority for this designation:
1) There is no autograph available, only a copy that was discovered circa 1900.
2) The copy originated in the 1720's
3) There is no title except 'Solo'
4) Bach's authorship of this composition was regarded for many years as questionable
5) Current Bach scholarship now accepts its authenticity
6) The version for flute was not an original designation or conception on Bach's part
7) The Allemande shows very atypical writing for flute - it was probably originally for a string or keyboard instrument
8) There are correspondences in the other mvts. with the violin solo sonata BWV 1003 and the keyboard fugue BWV 944 and BWV 784 (Invention), also with the solo suite for violoncello BWV 1007
9) It appeared for the 1st time in a printed edition as a "Solo-Partita" in 1917 (Peters) |
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Craig Schweickert wrote (October 13, 2002):
Kirk McElhearn wrote:
> I find the high notes in the opening partita to be very annoying - and I, too, am used to Verlet. It is not a question of temperament, but one of intonation. <
Precisely, which is why I referred to "tang." I suspect Bylsma might view it thus--if he didn't simply brush aside the issue as irrelevant to his music making, that is.
> The first couple of movements are hard to swallow; the same goes in the final sonata as well. <
I've just listened to van Dael's performance of BWV 1006 (unfortunately, for the purposes of this disucussion, I've lent my copy of Kuijken I to a friend) and I don't find Bylsma's intonation any less secure than hers. In neither case would I characterize the intonation as poor. Perhaps what's bothering you is the combination of a low instrument's tessitura and Bylsma's tempo (he takes the Preludio at a good clip--3'29" to van Dael's 4'00"--and *she* isn't playing a cello), the latter pretty much eliminating any possibility of "sweetening" vibrato.
Parenthetical questions for anyone who happens to be reading this: Is Bylsma's among the fastest performances of this movement, in particular on a stringed instrument? (It certainly blew me away the first time I heard it.) What are the timings for other recorded perfomances (Kuijken I and II, Luca, Matthews, Podger, Huggett, Wallfisch, Milstein, Szeryng, Menhuin, etc.)? On the lute, Hopkinson Smith clocks in at 4'52". At 3'16", the kick-butt performance (organ with orchestral accompaniment) in Herreweghe's recording of cantata BWV 29 beats Bylsma to the finish, but not by much.
I simply cannot fathom your comment re BWV 1003. Not to your taste, OK, but hard to swallow?! To my ears, it's compelling, insightful, illuminating from start to finish, although--like the Vegh Quartet's Beethoven--obviously more preoccupied with the search for truth than surface beauty. As when listening to Bylsma's Sony recording of the cello suites, I feel as though I'm overhearing a private conversation between him and the composer.
Funny that, despite having tastes that apparently often overlap, the twice we've been at odds over a recording, the work in question has been an arrangement of the Sonatas and Partitas--Bylsma's in BWV 1003 and 1006 and Hoppy's in BWV 1001 through 1006. Puts me in mind of Piotr's recent question about critics.
> However, the sarabande in the BWV 1013 is perhaps the most moving piece of > music I have ever heard on a solo string instrument. The entire BWV 1013 > makes this disc worthwhile, imho. I never thought I would hear that piece > played with such beauty and emotion. It makes the flute superfluous. <
Glad we can agree on this at least. It is the performance that introduced me to the work and none I've heard since has come close to plumbing the same depths. Bylsma finds even more in the music than Hazelzet, which is saying something.
> It sounds as though the flute sonata was recorded at a different time - at > least the recording is less harsh and maybe a bit more distant. Do you have > any recording info on your CD? The new release says nothing. <
Maybe on a different day but at the same session.
Producer & Recording Supervison: Wolf Erichson [the man gets around]
Engineering: Tritonus, Stuttgart
Recording & Editing: Stephan Schellmann
Recorded: Hervormde-Kirk, Bennebroek, Haarlem, NL, 23-25.6.1988
All the arrangements are by Bylsma. His instrument is a "genuine child's instrument, a Neuner Hornsteiner (Mittenwald c. 1825) which still has the original tailpiece and tail-pin which, incidentally, I do not use. I put on three 'normal' gut strings, whereby the G-string (thus: adG) is silver-plated, and for the e'-string I used a d'-gamba string available in any store. The tuning is one half-tone lower, as was customary at that time. My baroque bow was made about ten years ago by Bouman in The Hague. The fingering I used is more cello- than violin-like. Naturally I played from the original manuscript, not from a modern edition." [Bylsma, translated by Beverly J. Sing]
I was wrong about there not being a single mention of the music in the notes. That's true for BWV 1006 and 1003 but... "The flute partita, transmitted to us only through the 'translation' of a contemporary flautist, was originally most likely a piece for strings. I transposed the a minor to g minor. The final tone of the Allemande thus lies one tenth above the open e'-string, as in the sixth suite for cello and occasionally in the violin sonatas and partitas. When I had the impression that the flutist of the time altered something in the musical text, I played--very seldom--other notes. Was, for example, the low d in the Bourée Anglaise too quiet on the flute and presumably therefore played an octave higher at that time?" |
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Craig Schweickert wrote (October 13, 2002):
[To Thomas Braatz] Thanks for the information, Tom. Bylsma's note, quoted in my preceding message, clued me in to some of this but it's great to have chapter and verse. |
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Pete Blue wrote (October 13, 2002):
[To Kirk McElhearn] Thank you, Kirk, for starting this thread. The Bylsma disc was previously unknown to (or forgotten by) me and is now added to my Wish List. I too love his Cello Suites (I bought the Seon cassettes of the first recording when they first appeared).
Two points on the timing of the BWV 1006 Preludio:
(1) Smith's seems exceptionally slow; I'm used to hearing the Preludio at closer to Bylsma's tempo (two S&Ps I have at my fingertips, Luca and the infamous Gaehler, come in at 3'47" and 3'33", respectively).
(2) Luca in his great booklet notes states: "This movement shows signs of being a descendant of the type of piece early lutenists played as warm-up before the evening's dancing began: the characteristic repeated 16th-notes on different strings (known in violin parlance as 'bariolage') allowed the luteninst, afer tuning his instrument, to test the intonation of his many strings." Could this be pertinent to Hoppy's choice of tempo? |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (October 13, 2002):
Thomas Braatz wrote:
> The NBA VI/3 KB lists BWV 1013 as "Partita A-moll für Flauto Traverso Solo" which does not necessarily lend any special authority for this designation: (...)
6) The version for flute was not an original designation or conception on Bach's part
7) The Allemande shows very atypical writing for flute - it was probably originally for a string or keyboard instrument <
Indeed, it works well on keyboard. One of my grad school projects was to write and play a transcription of the entire 1013. I did it in D minor, which nicely uses the top note of Bach's harpsichord the same way the flute version uses the highest feasible note on the flute. The fourth movement also lends itself to echo effects like those in the B minor partita (Ouverture), BWV 831. |
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BWV 1008 brass |
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Matthew Neugebauer wrote (November 2, 2002):
Does anyone have a recording of BWV 1008 (2nd cello suite, d min) on trombone? It would greatly help with my university audition. |
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Craig Schweickert wrote (November 5, 2002):
[To Matthew Neugebauer] A search on Ottawa-based www.mymusic.com turned up a single hit: http://www.mymusic.com/product_classical.asp?curr=1&muzenbr=278834
(BTW, which university?)
"Christian Lindberg - Unaccompanied"
Released: 05/1998
Label: BIS Catalog: CD 858
Spar: DDD - Stereo # of Discs: 1
Usually Ships in 1 to 3 days
C$20.98
Works
Georg Philipp Telemann (1681 - 1767) - Fantasias (12) for Violin solo: no 1 in B flat major, TV 40 no 14/P 35 no 1
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Alto Trombone
Jan Sandström (1954 - ) - Pinceladas de la Mancha
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Tenor Trombone
Jan Sandström (1954 - ) - Bocetos de la Mancha
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Tenor Trombone
Jan Sandström (1954 - ) - Cadenza de la Mancha
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Tenor Trombone
Christian Lindberg - Variations on a Gregorian Chant I
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Tenor Trombone
Christian Lindberg - Variations on a Gregorian Chant II
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Tenor Trombone
Fredrik Högberg - Su ba do be
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Tenor Trombone
Johann Sebastian Bach (1685 - 1750) - Suite for Cello solo no 2 in D minor, BWV 1008
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Alto Trombone
Anonymous - Danse la Cleves
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Tenor Trombone
Christian Lindberg - Variations on a Gregorian Chant III
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Tenor Trombone
Georg Philipp Telemann (1681 - 1767) - Fantasias (12) for Violin solo: no 4 in D major, TV 40 no 17/P 35 no 4
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Alto Trombone
Georg Philipp Telemann (1681 - 1767) - Fantasias (12) for Violin solo: no 7 in E flat major, TV 40 no 20/P 35 no 7
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Alto Trombone
Anonymous - Danca Amorosa
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Tenor Trombone
Anonymous - La Spagna
Soloist: Lindberg, Christian - Instrument: Tenor Trombone |
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Matthew Neugebauer wrote (November 6, 2002):
[To Craig Schweickert] Thanks for your help-it does show that its available, but does anyone have an mp3 or cheaper cd (I don't want to buy a whole cd for 2 tracks, although some other pieces look interesting)
And I'm applying to U of T, Prairie Bible College and Carleton. |
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Embellishments in BWV 1008 minuet 1 |
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Matthew Neugebauer wrote (December 12, 2002):
I'm doing a few mvmts from the 2nd Cello Suite in d min, BWV 1008, and I have a question concerning the first minuet:
Where is it historically/musically appropriate to put trills and other embellishments in the minuet?
thanks |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (December 12, 2002):
[To Matthew Neugebauer] The technical answer is: "where it sounds good." Le bon gout. |
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David Zale wrote (December 13, 2002):
[To Matthew Neugebauer] I too am a cellist. If you look at the International edition of the suites you can see Bach's autograph of each suite. Each page has it's corresponding page from the autograph. Quite handy for moments like this. I have lent mine out and don't have it in front of me to consult, so I can only give opinion. Mine is this... I prefer minimal ornamentation in general, and the suites carry so much momentem melodically and harmonically that they are no exception for me. In this particalar movement I only to a slight trill on the a/e doublestop in the second to last measure. I might occasionally do a passing tone from the a to the f# in measure 18. This is just me though, and one particular genius of the suites is that no matter how many times you play them, there are always more ways to interpret the phrasing. I say keep it simple and let the music do the talking!
Have fun |
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Yo-Yo Ma |
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Pablo Fagoaga wrote (February 1, 2003):
I'd like to add to my collection Yo-Yo Ma's interpretation of Bach's Cello Suites, but I am aware of TWO different sets. The older one, from CBS, and a new recording from the nineties from Sony (it is called "Inspired by Bach").
I would appreciate if anyone who happens to know both of them could give me a hint to get the "better" one.
Of course, as it is a controversial term, please give "better" the implications and meaning you may wish
Thanks! |
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Kirk McElhearn wrote (February 1, 2003):
[To Pablo Fagoaga] I think there is about to be a re-release of one of them - I'm not sure which - at a very low price. |
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Matthew Neugebauer wrote (February 2, 2003):
[To Kirk McElhearn] It may not be completely relevant, but I would like to shed some background info on the 90s recording. This was made for a CBC TV special, and I think the 4th suite was the inspiration for Toronto's Musical Garden. What this is is literaly a garden, divided into sections that correspond to the individual mvmts of the suite! I haven't actually visited the garden yet, but I definitely want to. |
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Ehud Shiloni wrote (February 2, 2003):
[To Pablo Fagoaga] My personal view:
The first version is anemic.
The second version sounds better.
Both Yo-Yo Ma recordings are not top-of-the-list in my collection. |
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Pablo Fagoaga wrote (February 5, 2003):
[To Matthew Neugebauer, Kirk McElhearn, Ehud Shiloni] Thanks for your comments. Guess I'll try to find out which set will be re-released cheaper, but, anyway, I hope the re-released set to be the second recording, because I think that is going to be my choice.
"Anemic" seems to be too risky when it comes to solo Cello pieces, which, because of their very nature, can't resist "tired" readings.
I had the idea that this second recording could be a bit "extravagant" precisely because it's relationship with a TV show. But I'll take Ehud's tip.
Thanks!! |
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Cello suites transcribed for viola |
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Michael Carvin wrote (March 29, 2003):
I have just read Kirk McElhearns review of the Patricia McCarty transcriptions.
I've got the Westphal and Imai recordings. Anyone who has heard the Golani? |
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Kirk McElhearn wrote (March 29, 2003):
Michael Cervin wrote:
> I've got the Westphal and Imai recordings. Anyone who has heard the Golani? <
I've never heard it. |
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Bylsma's two sets |
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Jeff wrote (April 7, 2003):
Can any of you share your thoughts and comparisons of the two versions of Bylsma's Cello Suites (I believe one is from '79 and the other from '92)? I've heard the more recent one, but not the earlier one. For variety, Wispelwey is a favorite, and so is Beschi. I haven't heart Galliard yet. |
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Bach's Cello Suites from Richard Markson |
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Donald Satz wrote (September 20, 2003):
I've been listening for a few days to a relatively new recording of the Cello Suites by Richard Markson on Meridian. He programs theupbeat Suites on the first disc, and the remainder on the second. I love his first disc but find the other performances superficial. Has anyone else heard the set? |
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Bach/mystery: Suites for Cello recording |
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Chris Biddlex wrote (September 30, 2003):
I apologize in advance for drawing you into my obsession. In 1987, I purchased a CD of Bach's Suites for Cello (complete) and gave it as a gift to a friend who made me a tape of the recording. I cannot remember who the cellist was or the label, for that matter. My tape of the recording was stolen from my car in 1990. (Payback for my illegal recording.) To this day I have searched for THAT recording.
I have the Yo-Yo Ma version, but it is suppler and less dramatic than the one I'm seeking. The 1987 version (though I don't know that actual year of recording) was played by a cellist with quite a bit of assertive attack and no lack of bow scratching. I remember it as being very dynamic. I can easily imagine that some Bach lovers would have hated this recording. I loved it. I do remember that the cellist was male and for some reason I seem to remember that he was French or French Canadian... I don't know why I remember this.
However, maybe it was the Anner Bylsma early recording or maybe it was Janos Starker... ? I think I will know it when I hear it.
Any clues? I truly appreciate any help in this! |
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Matthew H. Fields wrote (September 30, 2003):
[To Chris Biddlex] I'm a fan of each of the Bylsma recordings as they don't add wrong harmonies alla Ma and they do keep the rhythms danceable. They're done in a more white-tone manner than most folks do them. |
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Mazzolata wrote (September 30, 2003):
[To Chris Biddlex] Pierre Fournier ? |
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Mazzolata wrote (September 30, 2003):
Mazzolata wrote:
> Pierre Fournier ? <
or Paul Tortelier ... I'm thinking of French sounding names. |
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Ian Bell wrote (September 30, 2003):
Mazzolata wrote:
>> Pierre Fournier ? <<
> or Paul Tortelier ... I'm thinking of French sounding names <
I would have guessed Tortelier, but the description didn't sound much like Fournier. |
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Simon Roberts wrote (September 30, 2003):
[To Chris Biddlex] Well, there's nothing French or French-Canadian sounding about Bylsma's or Starker's names.... Nor does your description evoke any of the Starker recordings I've heard. It does, however, sound quite a bit like Bylsma's first recording, which is fairly fast and gruff, the close recording bringing out mechanical noises (his remake is quite different). Since that's now cheap on CD (Sony Essential Classics) you could try that and see if it's the right one. Heinrich Schiff's is also assertive (it's also among the fastest), though I don't recall its being scratchy - but it too is cheap these days (EMI). |
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Serge Fourcade wrote (September 30, 2003):
Mazzolata wrote:
>> Pierre Fournier ? <<
> or Paul Tortelier ... I'm thinking of French sounding names <
Add Maurice Gendron and Andre Navarra... |
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Matthew B. Tepper wrote (September 30, 2003):
Chris Biddlex WROTE:
> I have the Yo-Yo Ma version, but it is suppler and less dramatic than the one I'm seeking. <
There are really *two* Yo-Yo Ma recordings. But then, only the first one was actually *composed* by Bach; the second set was only *inspired* by him!
;--) |
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Mazzolata wrote (September 30, 2003):
Mazzolata wrote:
>>> Pierre Fournier ? <<<
>>or Paul Tortelier ... I'm thinking of French sounding names <<
Serge Fourcade wrote:
> Add Maurice Gendron and Andre Navarra... <
Du Pre ? |
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Steve Emerson wrote (September 30, 2003):
Mazzolata wrote:
>>> Pierre Fournier ? <<<
>>or Paul Tortelier ... I'm thinking of French sounding names <<
Ian Bell wrote:
> I would have guessed Tortelier, but the description didn't sound much like Fournier. <
For that matter, I don't think it sounds much like Tortelier. |
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Paul Goldstein wrote (September 30, 2003):
[To Steve Emerson] Nor does it sound like Gendron. Wasnt' Julius Berger's set on the rough-and-tough side? I never heard it, but that's what I remember from reviews. |
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Simon Roberts wrote (September 30, 2003):
Serge Fourcade wrote:
>> Add Maurice Gendron and Andre Navarra... <<
Mazzolata wrote:
> Du Pre ? <
She didn't record them all, did she? |
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Peter T. Daniels wrote (October 1, 2003):
Serge Fourcade wrote:
>> Add Maurice Gendron and Andre Navarra... <<
Mazzolata wrote:
> Du Pre ? <
Did she record all six? The "Introuvables" box includes 1 & 2, and they're licensed from the BBC, not commercial recordings. |
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Mazzolata wrote (October 1, 2003):
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Did she record all six? The "Introuvables" box includes 1 & 2, and they're licensed from the BBC, not commercial recordings. <
no, she didn't. I was just coming up w. french sounding names. |
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Jeff wrote (October 1, 2003):
<< I have the Yo-Yo Ma version, but it is suppler and less dramatic than the one I'm seeking. The 1987 version (though I don't know that actual year of recording) was played by a cellist with quite a bit of assertive attack and no lack of bow scratching. I remember it as being very dynamic. >>
Was Lynn Harrell's recording available back in '87. I think so, and in any case, his playing was much more assertive and dramatic than Ma's. But I'm not sure how "scratchy" or French you would call him. |
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Naun C. wrote (October 1, 2003):
Mazzolata wrote:
> or Paul Tortelier ... I'm thinking of French sounding names <
Tortelier's not a bad guess. His playing sort of matches the description, and his early 80s remake would have been one of the recordings readily available on the market in 1987. But I think it was sold as two single discs. Berkshire has them at the moment, FWIW, along with his earlier set. |
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Chris Biddlex wrote (October 1, 2003):
Thank you all for taking the time to post your clues. I will investigate all of the names and post a follow-up. Thanks again for your insight! |
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Violoncellowerke |
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David Glenn Lebut Jr. wrote (January 1, 2004):
Does anybody know of any recordings of the solo Violoncello Suites performed by German artists on the Baroque Violoncello? If so, where could one find such a recording? |
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Kirk McElhearn wrote (January 1, 2004):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.] Not German, but Anner Bijlsma plays a baroque cello on his first recording on Seon-Sony. (Except for the 6th, which is on a violoncello picollo.) |
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Tomek wrote (January 1, 2004):
[To David Glenn Lebut Jr.] Isn't Peter Bruhns a German cellist? - his recording on Naive is on baroque cello as far as I'm concerned. |
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Matthew Neugebauer wrote (January 2, 2004):
Kirk McElhearn wrote:
> Not German, but Anner Bijlsma plays a baroque cello on his first recording > on Seon-Sony. (Except for the 6th, which is on a violoncello picollo.) <
same with ter Linden (if a 5-string cello is in fact a cello piccollo, or something like it), although on HM
a good performance mind you, much slower than the Ma second recording (interesting seeing that Ma is on a modern cello and is faster than ter Linden-ah that myth of faster speeds!) |
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Bach Cello Suites from Haimovitz |
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Donald Satz wrote (February 13, 2004):
When I visited my local Borders today, I noticed a set of the Cello Suites from Matt Haimovitz on the Oxingale label. I faintly remember hearing about this set some time ago, but this is the first time I've actually seen the set in a store.
Being a baroque cello enthusiast, I'm always a little wary about modern instrument recordings. Also, the price tag is over $30., so I'd like some opinions of the performances. Specifically, are they highly romanticized in the manner of Rostropovich and Maisky? |
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Casals for cello suites? |
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Juozas Rimas wrote (March 22, 2004):
I haven't yet listened extensively to Bach's cello suites. The first classical piece I've heard, though, was Casals 1st suite. The sound is very warm, dark, soft. Even a possible mistake (screech) in the Courante doesn't spoil a thing.
I wonder what it means to enjoy Casals today : can you be regarded as a person who lived "under a rock" for too long and doesn't know modern trends?
Which modern renditions are usually recommended?
Thanks. |
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Donald Satz wrote (March 22, 2004):
[To Juozas Rimas] Thre's no reason to bring up "living under a rock". I prefer baroque cello for repertoire, but Casals is a top pick otherwise. Both of Yo-Yo Ma's versions on Sony are well received, but he has been criticized for being entirely mainstream; I like them very much. Another excellent modern cello set comes from Ralph Kirshbaum on Virgin Classics - low price too (less than Naxos). There are a host of other highly rated sets that I'm sure other posters will mention. |
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Juozas Rimas wrote (March 22, 2004):
Donald Satz wrote:
> Thre's no reason to bring up "living under a rock". I prefer baroque cello for this repertoire, but Casals is a top pick otherwise. <
By "modern trends" I meant precisely Baroque cellos (modern "HIP trend") and not Yo-Yo Ma's "modern" cello. I wondered whether it's outdated to prefer Casals today with all the Baroque cello recordings available. Like prefering, say, Klemperer's SMP or other old non-HIP recordings of cantatas seems to be outdated now, judging by online forums (which I agree with here), while we have so many cantatas, recorded HIP-style.
What are Baroque cello renditions of the suites then, that wouldn't fade beside Casals? |
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Paul Dirmeikis wrote (March 22, 2004):
Juozas Rimas wrote:
> What are Baroque cello renditions of the suites then, that wouldn't fade beside Casals? <
I might say Anner Bylsma, the 1992 Vivarte Sony recording. |
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Craig Schwickert wrote (March 22, 2004):
Juozas Rimas wrote:
> By "modern trends" I meant precisely Baroque cellos (modern "HIP trend") and not Yo-Yo Ma's "modern" cello. I wondered whether it's outdated to prefer Casals today with all the Baroque cello recordings available. Like prefering, say, Klemperer's SMP or other old non-HIP recordings of cantatas seems to be outdated now, judging by online forums (which I agree with here), while we have so many cantatas, recorded HIP-style. <
Your preferences are your preferences. As such, they are current. Others may not share them, but they can't claim they're outdated. They might rightly claim you prefer outdated performaces or old-fashioned performance practices, however.
> What are Baroque cello renditions of the suites then, that wouldn't fade beside Casals? <
Anner Bylsma's two recordings are generally considered baroque cello benchmarks. Both are on Sony and the earlier is at super-budget price.
Jaap ter Linden's lovely, understated performance is now available on an inexpensive Harmonia Mundi twofer. |
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Gabriel Jackson wrote (March 22, 2004):
Juozas Rimas wrote:
> By "modern trends" I meant precisely Baroque cellos (modern "HIP trend") and not Yo-Yo Ma's "modern" cello. I wondered whether it's outdated to prefer Casals today with all the Baroque cello recordings available. Like prefering, say, Klemperer's SMP or other old non-HIP recordings of cantatas seems to be outdated now, judging by online forums (which I agree with here), while we have so many cantatas, recorded HIP-style.
What are Baroque cello renditions of the suites then, that wouldn't fade beside Casals? <
I don't think one should talk about it being "outdated" to enjoy Casals' (or Klemperer's) perormances of Bach. I don't, but that's just personal taste. An HIP recording of the cello suites that I think is terrific is Jaap ter Linden's on Harmonia Mundi. |
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William D. Kasimer wrote (March 22, 2004):
> Both of Yo-Yo Ma's versions on Sony are well received, but he has been criticized for being entirely mainstream; I like them very much. <
I haven't heard the second one (I have to confess that I'm turned off by the packaging, and by the fact that they didn't manage to fit all six suites onto the two discs without the need to split one of them). It's hard for me to imagine, though, that the music could be played more beautifully than Ma does in the first set. My "problem" with it, though, is that tonal beauty seems to be the goal, and there's not much beyond that. I think that Fournier's classic version is as well played, but more expressive. But the modern version that I enjoy the most is Schiff's. It's quicker, and boasts a wider palate of expression.
For HIP, I've been disappointed by both Ter Linden's and Wispelwey's recordings; both seem to smooth all of the edges off the music, as though they're consciously trying to make the older instrument sound like a modern one. If I want HIP, I turn to Bylsma's first version, on a pair of Sony Essential Classics CD's. Bylsma's later Vivarte version is also good, but even that's a bit "smoothed over" for my taste; I prefer the rougher, almost gruff sound that he produces on the earlier set. |
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Donald Satz wrote (March 23, 2004):
[To Juozas Rimas] My favored baroque cello set comes from Paolo Beschi on Winter & Winter.
Concerning "outdated" versions, that's an individual decision not applicable to group-think. |
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Jean-Max Clement Bach solo cello |
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Dirk A. Ronk wrote (April 1, 2004):
A number of months back, I acquired two older L'Oiseau Lyre LPs with Jean-Max Clement playing Bach's solo cello suites. Haven't had a chance to listen to them yet, but made a start last night--played most of side one while getting ready for bed. Not the best way to evaluate the performance, I grant you, but what I've heard so far sounds pretty nice, if without quite the drama I'm used to in Starker or the finesse I get from Fournier. Still, I'm willing to listen with open mind as well as ears.
Does anyone know these recordings--or about Clement, for that matter?
He's unfamiliar to me. |
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cello suites [Beginners Bach] |
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Jack Botelho wrote (April 19, 2004):
For the first time in many months, almost two years, I have managed to become engrossed in listening to the six suites for violoncello solo by Bach. This renewed interest occurred with the listening of Yo-Yo Ma's second recording (1997) "Inspired by Bach" on the Sony label. Years ago, Yo-Yo Ma's first recording of the Cello Suites stirred up renewed interest in these works among Bach fans and this issue worked to introduce many newcomers to Bach's music in general. No matter what some critics may have commented on Yo-Yo Ma's first recording of the suites, it seems to be a fine example of how the early music movement has the potential to introduce many new listeners to classical/baroque music in general, even among young people born into situations of poor culture or privilege.
My first exposure to "Inspired by Bach" led to pulling out Jaap ter Linden's recording dating from c1995 (apologies if this date is incorrect, corrections welcome) on the Harmonia Mundi label. For a long time I found Linden's version not "exciting" enough, but this seems to have been a problem of poor listener concentration on my part.
I no longer can listen through Pablo Casal's rendition these days; also I have not heard Anner Bylsma's c.1979 issue.
Do members have a favourite rendition of the cello suites to share? |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (April 20, 2004):
Jack Botelho wrote:
> I no longer can listen through Pablo Casal's rendition these days... <
Why not?
One of my reviews of it is at: Amazon.com
See also this terrific book:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/textbooks/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0520040325
http://www.google.com/search?q=blum+casals+interpretation |
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F. Sato wrote (April 20, 2004):
Jack Botelho wrote:
> Do members have a favourite rendition of the cello suites to share? <
You can sing some of the suites, except for the problem of the voice range..
"sol re si la si re si re sol re si la si re si re | sol mi do si do mi do mi sol mi do si do mi do mi .."
Aside from a joke, I often pick out the Pierre Fournier's 1976-77 recording. I favor a sense of lightness in the recording. |
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Jack Botelho wrote (April 20, 2004):
Jack Botelho wrote:
>> I no longer can listen through Pablo Casal's rendition these days... <<
Bradley Lehman wrote:
> Why not? <
Is it true that Casals only recorded the suites once? Is it also true that resisted recording these for some 20 years?
I don't have time to search around for these answers, and this e-mail forum may be a good place to ask.
Is it also true that Casals insisted that his recording was only one "take" of these suites among an infinite range of interpretation?
I did at one time purchase that Naxos re-issue of the Casals Bach suites, and if my memory serves me correctly, the final movement of suite no.1 BWV 1007 is not given on that issue - instead another movement from another suite is given in its place (I cannot remember which movement this is): a serious error of ommission that has hopefully resulted in Naxos re-calling that particular issue.
Why cannot I listen to Casals these days? Perhaps because I would like to hear other "takes" if he left such. The sole Casals recording has become too predictable to my ears, but this may be a listening failure. |
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Jack Botelho wrote (April 20, 2004):
[To F. Sato] Always nice to hear from you Fumitaka. Of course, there has been a brief, heated debate about the application of a "cantabile" style to instrumental music of the baroque, specifically with regard to Vivaldi's 1711 concertos "L'estro armonico" on this list already.
However, I wonder about Bach's intention or familiarity with violoncello playing "style" in his time. Should the solo cello suites sound choppy, with the brutal attack of a Heinrich Schiff or Anner Bylsma? Or should these suites be played overall in a smooth, cantabile manner? |
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F. Sato wrote (April 20, 2004):
[To Jack Botelho] My belief is that music always sings. There can be disputes about the way how music sings or to what extent notes can be "distorted" in the expressive playing. |
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Donald Satz wrote (April 20, 2004):
[To Jack Botelho, in response to his first message] I favor the Paolo Beschi set on Winter & Winter - released in 1998. Baroque cello, and it is very sharp. Beschi snaps those notes into place - not a winner for those who prefer mellow sounds. |
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Jack Botelho wrote (April 20, 2004):
[To F. Sato] I tend to agree. I have read several excerpts of discussion from musicologists who trace instrumental music from the 16th century to the baroque era, and well into the baroque period instrumental music was based on vocal music forms. However, instrumental music did acquire certain performance practice techniques idiomatic to the musical instruments played soon after being emancipated from the role of accompaniment to the human voice (and even before this). The question seems to be how much should these techniques be taken in re-creating a historcally informed result.
My main area of reading has been to do with violin playing in the baroque era. As early as c.1615 Michael Praetorius wrote with regard to describing musical instruments that "the violin is so well known that nothing more needs to be said about it". When one thinks of the several generations of violin playing handed down from adult to child before Bach was even born, it may be easy to underestimate the quality of instrumental technique which must have been in existence by the early eighteenth century. What I mean by "quality" of performance practice is subtle practices not documented on the pages of the music. What concerns me most about some discussions in the period instrument movement is the lack of consideration for questions of "style". I would suggest that in general, stylistic trends in the baroque era are well understood in terms of how they should sound, but it seems some in the period instrument movement refuse to take such a stylistically conservative approach for fear of sounding "too similar to older recordings, and not novel enough."
This is only a point of view.
PS The "sense of lightness" you describe with regard to Pierre Fournier's 1976-77 recording of the Cello Suites reads to be very appealing. I have seen this recording on the shelf of my local shop, and will report back with some impressions if still available. |
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F. Sato wrote (April 20, 2004):
Jack Botelho wrote:
> I have read several excerpts of discussion from musicologists who trace instrumental music from the 16th century to the baroque era, and well into the baroque period instrumental music was based on vocal music forms. However, instrumental music did acquire certain performance practice techniques idiomatic to the musical instruments played soon after being emancipated from the role of accompaniment to the human voice (and even before this). The question seems to be how much should these techniques be taken in re-creating a historcally informed result. <
The following is an excerpt from "On Playing the Flute" by J.J. Quantz.
"If you wish to judge an instrumental composition correctly, you must have an exact knowledge not only of the characteristic features of each type of piece that may appear, but also, as stated above, of the instruments themselves. A piece may in itself conform to good taste as well as to the rules of harmony, and thus be considered well written, yet still remain unsuited to the instrument. On the other hand, a piece may conform to the instrument yet have no intrinsic value. Vocal music has some advantages that instrumental music must forgo. In the former the words and the human voice are a great advantage to the composer, both with regard to invention and effect. Experience makes this obvious when, lacking a voice, and aria is heard played on an instrument. Yet instrumental music, without words and human voices, ought to express certain emotions, and should transport the listeners from one emotion to another just as well as vocal music does. And if this is to be accomplished properly, so as to compensate for the lack of words and the human voice, neither the composer nor performer can be devoid of feeling."
(citation from Chapter xviii, section 28)
Here one could find that in the case of Quantz, it is obvious that he thinks vocal music and instrumental music should not be considered different in its nature but that instrumental music ought to express certain emotions more than vocal music does.
Technical aspect must be another point to be discussed. |
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John Pike wrote (April 20, 2004):
F. Sato wrote:
> My belief is that music always sings. There can be disputes about the way how music sings or to what extent notes can be "distorted" in the expressive playing. <
I remember Yo-Yo Ma encouraging a masterclass student to remember that this is private music when performing it. A wise comment that surely needs consideration in playing the music. But numerous other factors need to be considered and no one style will suffice for every movement. On the contrary, using the same style of playing for every movement is likely to be boring and is unlikely to get to the heart of the music, beautiful as the sound may be. Bach's music often has a very strong rhythmic quality that needs to be brought out and one also needs to remember that these suites are composed of mainly dance movments. |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (April 20, 2004):
> I did at one time purchase that Naxos re-issue of the Casals Bach suites, and if my memory serves me correctly, the final movement of suite no.1 BWV 1007 is not given on that issue - instead another movement from another suite is given in its place (I cannot remember which movement this is): a serious error of ommission that has hopefully resulted in Naxos re-calling that particular issue. <
As I pointed out in my Amazon review, including the stamper numbers on the discs, Amazon.com
Naxos did correct that when I complained directly to them. And that was some years ago; the ones in stores now are corrected with the re-pressing.
> Is it true that Casals only recorded the suites once? Is it also true that he resisted recording these for some 20 years? <
Yes, only one recording as complete performances, although I think some informal tapes from masterclasses also still exist.
No, his resistance was not to *recording* them, but to playing them in publiat all for many years before he felt he was ready to do so. He started learning them in about 1890. And that was a long time before 1936-9, when he recorded them, at that point still a young man in his early 60s. |
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Bradley Lehman wrote (April 21, 2004):
Jack Botelho wrote:
> I have read several excerpts of discussion from musicologists who trace instrumental music from the 16th century to the baroque era, and well into the baroque period instrumental music was based on vocal music forms. However, instrumental music did acquire certain performance practice techniques idiomatic to the musical instruments played soon after being emancipated from the role of accompaniment to the human voice (and even before this). The question seems to be how much should these techniques be taken in re-creating a historcally informed result.
My main area of reading has been to do with violin playing in the baroque era. As early as c.1615 Michael Praetorius wrote with regard to describing musical instruments that "the violin is so well known that nothing more needs to be said about it". When one thinks of the several generations of violin playing handed down from adult to child before Bach was even born, it may be easy to underestimate the quality of instrumental technique which must have been in existence by the early eighteenth century. What I mean by "quality" of performance practice is subtle practices not documented on the pages of the music. <
Don't miss David Douglass' chapter "The Violin Family: Technique and Style" in A Performer's Guide to Seventeenth-Century Music, edited by Stewart Carter. The bowing, the methods of holding the instrument, and left-hand technique were all changing rapidly. |
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Wang Xiao-yun wrote (April 21, 2004):
Jack Botelho wrote:
> Is it true that Casals only recorded the suites once? Is it also true that he resisted recording these for some 20 years?
I don't have time to search around for these answers, and this e-mail forum may be a good place to ask.
Is it also true that Casals insisted that his recording was only one "take" of these suites among an infinite range of interpretation?
I did at one time purchase that Naxos re-issue of the Casals Bach suites, and if my memory serves me correctly, the final movement of suite no.1 BWV 1007 is not given on that issue - instead another movement from another suite is given in its place (I cannot remember which movement this is): a serious error of ommission that has hopefully resulted in Naxos re-calling that particular issue.
Why cannot I listen to Casals these days? Perhaps because I would like to hear other "takes" if he left such. The sole Casals recording has become too predictable to my ears, but this may be a listening failure. <
I once read in a book written by Josep Maria Corredor that Casals told the author in 50's that he thought he had made some mistakes in the famous EMI recording. In the appendix of the book, the author lists in the chronicle that Casals recorded the Suites again in 50's. However, I have never found any more information about the recording. OTOH, the book I read is a Chinese version and it's a shame the translation is terrible! I suppose there should be other people on the list who have read it (according to my knowledge, it's a well-known book) in a more reliable version and may give some information on the topic.
In my EMI CD note, Casals found the Suites score in a second-hand book store in his teenage and kept playing from then on. The recording is done in 1930's so that's more than 30 years of crystalization and that's amazing!
As for the edition error in the Naxos version, I think you may request to change your copy as Brad has pointed out in his review.
BTW, Casals' Suites is one of the first group of Bach recordings I bought to myself and I think it will remain as one of my lifelong favourite. |
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Jack Botelho wrote (April 21, 2004):
[To Wang Xiao-yun] Nice post! I look forward to any further information from others concerning Corredor's book and the subject of a possible further recording of the suites by Casals, or at least alternate takes of movements from the original sessions. Thanks for this! |
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Continue on Part 2 |
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